Message-Id: <m0sBtE9-0009acC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Wed, 17 May 1995 20:15:49 EDT
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Re: A modest proposal #2: verdicality
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 1803
Lines: 46

> Let me just make one point that may be new, without trying to start a
> new discussion: gender and (physical) sex are hardly as dualistic as
> most people think they are (and as our culture constantly pushes on
> us).

I know, I sure do.

> Consider transvestites, transsexuals, and hermaphrodites.
> Because of those last, in particular, one might reasonably say {da cu
> nanmu je ninmu je nimnau}.

Sure, but we are talking about one particular woman. Assume that she
is a woman and not a man, and yet due to our initial misaprehension
we insist to keep calling her {le nanmu}. I don't know why I'm
defending this example anyway since I really agree with you in
essence.

> But I'm sure one could come up with a better example, and...
>
>  > However, if you want to think that {le} is always veridical, I'm not
>  > going to disagree with you, since that is the case except in a set
>  > of measure zero anyway.  :)
>
> I think I'll just do that.  (A fellow mathematician at heart, I see.)

I guess you must have heard the joke: biologists believe they're chemists,
chemists believe they're physicists, physicists believe they are God,
and God believes he's a mathematician.


> Well, yes, but because of the implicit existential quantification of
> {da}, a {noi} clause ends up providing information crucial to
> restricting the quantification and understanding the sentence; e.g.,
> {da noi nanmu cu te cimei} == "There are at least three men."

Assuming that the {cimei} is composed of men. da, being a nanmu, could
be a member of the set {pa nanmu, pa tirxu, pa cribe}

>
> (Hmm.  I'm not sure how much sense that makes.  Does
>       le xunre cukta .e le blabi cukta .e le blanu cukta cu te cimei
> make sense?)

Yes. But nothing says that they are members of the same {cimei}, I think.

Jorge