From @uga.cc.uga.edu:lojban@cuvmb.bitnet Tue May 30 23:59:58 1995 Received: from punt2.demon.co.uk by stryx.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA3180 ; Tue, 30 May 95 23:59:53 BST Received: from punt2.demon.co.uk via puntmail for ia@stryx.demon.co.uk; Tue, 30 May 95 11:37:34 GMT Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by punt2.demon.co.uk id aa14130; 30 May 95 12:37 +0100 Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7494; Tue, 30 May 95 07:35:04 EDT Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8434; Tue, 30 May 1995 07:34:07 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 07:34:57 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: misc responses to Goran - dleayed as usual X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Iain Alexander Message-ID: <9505301237.aa14130@punt2.demon.co.uk> Status: R Goran, last week, wrote: >The position of an event can be obtained with jai, if I read the >intention OK. The place I thought at is lo jai bu'u mi pensi. If >that's what you meant by position abstract. That isn't grammatical, and since you gave no translation, I am not sure what was intended. lomi jaibu'u pensi does work. jaibu'u has the grammar of SE in a description, and so what you had was grammatically something like *le se mi pensi. ni'o >> {ki'e ku'i ju'ocu'i} I was referring to the principle that all typographic >> distinctions (chapter headings, for example) should be reflected in the >> phonetics. I think this is a somewhat silly principle, anyway (for >> instance, while it's noble to try to make mathematical expressions >> speakable, it's totally infeasible for expressions of any complexity. I >> saw a Ph.D. thesis on speaking equations for the blind recently; see >> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/People/raman/aster/demo.html) > >It's not that silly. It *looks* silly because you're not used to it. >What I'm saying is that the story looks quite unambiguous and concise >even without the paragraph boundaries. Yes, empty lines don't count in >lojban, there was no confusion arising because of the lack of ni'o, so >no harm done. I am not sure I agree with Goran here. When someone reads an English text to you, they do not speak the paragraph marks, and you still understand the text. If the information of it being a new paragraph is important, the speaker generally gives a sign of this is tone of voice. Lojban conveys what is in tone of voice in English through words, so that the printed text and the spoken text convey the same information. So a ni'o/no'i means more than a reseting of variables. It has the discursive effect of indicating a change in topic. You can omit ni'o and no'i when the visual paragraphing is for aid in reading but there is no topic change. If you are concerned about resetting variables unintentionally, you can flag intent for long scoped variables with a ni'oni'o (perhaps then listing/defining variables of long scope) and these will not be reset by a simple ni'o. Typographical conventions that convey no semantics are fine in Lojban, if they make the result easier to read. "le mi" vs. "lemi" does not change the meaning in the slightest, so writing the two words as one for ease of reading is OK. Colin Fine last year (?) did an experiment where he omitted all spaces not explicitly required by the phonology to separate words e.g. "mitavla dolelojbo gerna". Technically, if you read this text aloud with penultimate stress, it would be perfectly understandable, but it is more than a bit hard on the eyes. Some aspects of written convention, like paragraph indentation, starting new sentences with extra spaces (or as some do with Lojban - a new line for every sentence), double spacing text to avoid eyestrain - have no semantic import at all, but are merely aids for the visual reading process. Hence they are essentially unregulated by Lojban rules. I do have typographical conventions for Ju'i Lobypli and other publications I put out, but that more for my convenience (I have to read the stuff over and over, and to type/edit it) and for consistency in our teaching materials. lojbab