From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu Mon May 15 18:31:08 1995 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 13:24:30 -0400 From: John Cowan Subject: Re: TEXT: le gunse ku joi le lorxu To: Bob LeChevalier Message-ID: la xorxes. pu cusku di'e > > > Why not? I don't like the many irrelevant places of {klama}, but what > > > can I do? Any suggestions for how to say "go around the oven"? mi cusku di'e > > "mluni le toknu". xy. cusku di'e > i mluni le toknu ma ma > > The extra places of {mluni} are even more weird than those of {klama}! > Otherwise it would be a great way to say it. True, true. > (How are those places filled anyway? Why does {mluni} have a place for > "characteristics", whatever they are, and {klama} doesn't? How are > orbital parameters x4 specified? Wouldn't space tenses work much better > for that?) I suspect all that stuff is there because {la lojbab. purci ke tarske djuno}. Anyway, I didn't mean the suggestion seriously. I suspect that that the existence of x4 requires that the movement of x1 around x2 be ballistic in nature: a ball can {mluni}, but a person doesn't really {mluni} an oven. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. >From lojbab To: cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG Subject: Re: TEXT: le gunse ku joi le lorxu >I suspect all that stuff is there because {la lojbab. purci ke tarske djuno}. >Anyway, I didn't mean the suggestion seriously. I suspect that that the >existence of x4 requires that the movement of x1 around x2 be ballistic in >nature: a ball can {mluni}, but a person doesn't really {mluni} an oven. > >-- >John Cowan cowan@ccil.org Or at least if a person does mluni an oven, then you need to be able to match all the places in the metaphor, and not just the convenient ones. It actually had little to do with my studies in astronomy. Even before I was serious about Loglan, others (jimc???) were arguing about adding gravity well places to "fall" and "orientation" places to directions and "standards" places to colors. This came from the invasion of hard-science types into the Loglan community in the mid-70s, as everyone brough their own idiosyncratic specialty knowledge to bear on their predicates of choice. At one point much earlier in the Lojban development, i carried this to extremes, tending up with 4 and 5 places on lots of things. There are still a few remnants of this, including mluni, but more specifically I am thinking of klupe, whose x3 and x4 were typical of a lot of substantive predicate words. Even before Jorge, the wave of expanding place strutures subsided and many were eliminated. Jorge would have us eliminate still more, but I think we have reached a good balance. One just has to be wary NOT to use a brivla metaphorically unless you can metaphorize all of the places of the place structure. lojbab