From dpt@abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU Sat Mar 6 22:45:17 2010 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 15:32:55 -0400 From: Dylan Thurston Subject: Re: Questions To: Bob LeChevalier X-From-Space-Date: Thu May 11 02:58:35 1995 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu Message-ID: coi xorxes .i ki'e danfu On Mon, 8 May 1995 jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU wrote: > > >From the text: > > >.i mi fi do ca cusku doi pendo fe ledu'u mi mu'inai loi cazi li'i nandu > > >joi se steba cu ca'o pacna da .i da mutce se jicmu le'e merko se pacna > ... > > "cazi" is a tense indicator, "now" "short time distance". I don't > > know what it would mean, though. The English has "the difficulties of > > " around here. The structure of the whole tale > > end of that birdi eludes me. > ... > {li'i nandu joi se steba} would be "x1 is an experience of something > being difficult/frustrating for someone". From context, I would > understand that the experiencer is the one for whom something is > difficult/frustrating, and not the one that is difficult/frustrating. > I think it would be mopre clear to say: {li'i se nandu joi steba}. But both would be correct, right? None of the sumti places of {nandu joi se steba} are filled anyway. > {cazi} means "now", but the {zi} adds a little uncertainty as to the > exact position of the now. It could be "just now" or "any time now". > So {cazi li'i nandu joi se steba} means "x1 is, about now, an experience > of difficulty/frustration}. > > Then {loi cazi li'i nandu joi se steba} would be {some present > difficulties}. OK, that's helpful. Thanks. > A more literal translation perhaps would be {lei cabna joi balvi nandu}. Could you also say something like {lei caba nandu}? What's the proper tense indicator for "present, and continuing", without implying any termination? > > .... > I understand {fatci smuni} as "the real/actual meaning", which seems > right. {jicmu smuni} would be "the most elemental meaning", opposed > perhaps to a more sophisticated one. Yes, I was just being silly. > > Because of these two and what strikes me as an overabundance of tanru, > > I'd guess that Nick wrote this while he was still experimenting with > > his lojban style. Is this right? Is there a better text for a > > beginner to start with? Sorry, that came out totally wrong. I was feeling rather frustrated when I wrote this. But I would appreciate some grading of the texts, for ease of reading, etc. (Or at least a date, to get an idea of the development of style.) > > >- the box is bottle-shaped, making ta1 both a bottle and a box; > > >- the box contains one or more bottles; > > >- the box is made of one or more bottles; > > >- the box is the contents of one or more bottles; > > >- the box is the material used for making one or more bottles. > > > > The 4th and 5th examples here perplex me; they violate the only > > meaning I could give to the earlier quote. Anybody? > > The x1 of {botpi tanxu} is a box. I suppose that the 4th example > means that it's a box inside a bottle, a "bottled box", although > {se botpi tanxe} might be more clear. I don't understand the 5th > example either. I think you misunderstood my question. These are all clear meanings, whether or not they make sense in the real world; they relate the different places of {tanxu} and {botpi}, it seems. I was asking if it's permissible to use {botpi tanxu} for the fourth meaning, or if {se botpi tanxu} is necessary (by the principle that "the first place of {botpi} in some way restricts the relation". > > .i fe'omi'e dilyn. trsTON. > ... > That's why a pause is needed after {mi'e}, which if you write the dots > should be written {mi'e.} Oh! I didn't realize pauses could occur between a vowel and a consonant. > You don't need to capitalize TON, because the o is the only vowel and > so it already has the stress anyway. I intended the 'r' to be vocalic. Surely it could be stressed? (An example from the textbook: {CR,lok. xolmz.}) Do I need a comma? (See below.) mi rapygau lenu mi ckire fe'omi'e. dilyn. TRS,ton. (Doubtless I could omit the capitalization with the revised stress.)