From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu Thu May 11 02:35:38 1995 Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 01:37:31 +0200 From: Goran Topic Subject: Re: TEXT: le gunse ku joi le lorxu To: Bob LeChevalier Message-ID: coi fi'i ro do poi cnino > On Sat, 29 Apr 1995 jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU wrote: > > > i le de'e lisri cu xe fanva lo spano xe fanva be fo le bangrxaimara > First: what are the principles of formation of 'bangrxaimara'? > Presumably that's 'language of the Aimaras', but I don't know where the > 'rx' comes from. (Incidentally, what is the English orthography for > {aimaras}?) That's something (incorrectly but traditionally) called le'avla (should be borrowed words, but came out as borrower-words). The point is, if you want to make a new word from a foreign one, then you translate the word wanted into lojban ortography, make sure it begins with a consonant and ends with a vowel (xaimara - that's where x comes from), take the gismu best classifying the concept (here: the specific lang of the Aimara can be classified as a bangu), change its last vowel into r and stick it all together (bang+r+xaimaras). > > i la aimaras cu ketco natmi i ri xabju la bolivias joi la perus > > joi le berti be la tciles joi la arxentinas i le bangrxaimara cu > > mutce cinri i mi pu tcidu lo piso'umei sera'a ra > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > le gunse ku joi le lorxu > > > > .i zuku zuku le fetygunse ku joi le fetlorxu cu tavla simxu .i le gunse > > pu kansa lei ri panzi .i zutse loi rokci .ibabo le lorxu cu klama je > > penmi gy .i ly cusku lu ua doi gunse ri'a ma lei do panzi ne tai > > lo zunri cu melbi .i lei me mi na go'i .i ri gruzi .i au ri simsa > > lei me do .i ta'i ma do cpacu lei panzi noi tai melbi li'u > > Out of curiousity, how would one rephrase the first bridi without using the > tanru {tavla simxu}? > {zunri} should be {zumri} and {gruzi} should be {grusi}, right? .i zuku zuku le fetygunse ku joi le fetlorxu cu simxu lenu tavla > > .i le gunse cu spusku lu lei me mi pu se jukpa .i mi glare jukpa ri > > le nu nerpu'i rori le toknu .i e'u ko jukpa lei me do .i aupei mi > > bregau le toknu sei le gunse cu cusku li'u > > It strikes me as a bit odd to repeat 'le gunse cu cusku', but it's > properly marked. > > Shouldn't the paragraph be marked with {ni'o}? Paragraphs can be marked with ni'o or no'i, but apart from resetting the variables it does not have some great semantics in a logical context. Simply - not often needed, except for convenience, IMHO... > > .i lu ausai ko zbasu le toknu sei le lorxu cu cusku .i ta'i ma cu zbasu > > le toknu .i xu me ti li'u .i ly lebna loi bliku mu'i le nu zbasu > ^^^^^ > > le toknu .ibabo ly glagau ce'o glagau le toknu ja'e le nu ri mutce > > glare > > Is {lebna} really right here? From the gismu list, {lebna} has an x3 > place, the person x2 is taken from; 'seize' seems to be the closest > English equivalent. Wouldn't {cpacu} be better? > (I also recently noticed {lebna} used in the same way in "Imaginary > Journeys: The Lojban Space/Time Tense System". Am I seeing linguistic > drift?) I don't know the original... Is it that the fox stole or just found and took the blocks (bricks?)? lebna is steal, as well as seize, and can also mean (in the right context) 'be given' (fits the place structure), the only difference between se dunda and lebna being that the former means that the object was taken from its previous possessor with his assent, and the latter makes no assertion either way. I think. > > .ibabo le gunse cu cusku lu e'u ko klagau lei do panzi ti .i mi'o > > ba punji ra le nenri be le toknu .ibabo selgaigau ra le glare dertu > > .i roroi ca le nu do tirna le nu spoja keikei ko cusku lu paboi reboi > > li'o li'u gi'e klama ru'u le toknu .ibabo lei do panzi ba'o binxo > > lo simsa be lei zumri ne du'i lei me mi li'u > > In the first bridi, why {ti} instead of {vi}? vi is a tense and cannot fill a numbered place. ti, on the other hand, is a pro-sumti and as such can do so. Look: mi klama ti (x1) lo lalxu (x2) means I go to the lake. mi klama vi lo lalxu (x*) means I go (move around) in the vicinity of the lake vi lo lalxe in the second sentence is one sumti, and it goes into its own place, which vi opened up for it in the structure. See? And ti means THIS HERE; not only for physical objects, but can also refer to anything that is close to the speaker in space-time, including locations and moments. > Can one person {klama ru'u le toknu} (come around the oven)? Think: Go, around the oven (circle the oven). klama does not mean come. It means to go from/to/through/by. None of these were specified, so we can translate is just nice with go. Come is a good translation if you have the destination, but if not it is very misleading. (mi klama ti - I come here (I go to here), but mi klama is just - I go.) > > .i ta'i la'e di'u le lorxu nerpu'i lei ri panzi le toknu .i lu i'esai > > me ta sei le gunse cu cusku li'u > > > > .i la'e lu me ta li'u se zukte le lorxu .i ca'o le nu le lorxu > > cu nerpu'i lei ri panzi le toknu kei le gunse ku joi lei ri panzi > > cu darno klama fo le lalxu .i mutce darno le lorxu > > > > .i ki'unai le nu lei lorpanzi cu dunku klaku kei le lorxu na jundi ra > > gi'e nerpu'i ra le toknu .ibabo ua co'a spoja fa lei betfu be lei > > lorpanzi .i roroi ca le nu lo betfu cu spoja kei le lorxu cu sruri > > klama gi'e gleki cusku lu paboi li'u fa'ubo lu reboi li'u fa'ubo > > lu ciboi li'u fa'ubo lu voboi li'u fa'ubo lu muboi li'u > > Now's a good a time as any to inquire about the distinction {lo} vs. > {le}. Why is it, e.g., {lei betfu} in the second line but {lo betfu} in > the third? co'a spoja lo betfu means For each of the stomacks, it began exploding. That depicts five separate processes of exploding, each of which is at the beginning point. co'a spoja loi betfu means The stomacks began exploding. That means there is one process, which is really a series of explosions of various stomacks, which is now beginning. The focus of the narrative here is not IMHO on the series of explosions of each of the stomacks, but on the point in time when the heat reached the level when the stomacks began exploding. (Umm, this got much more muddled than I thought. I think I'll let somebody else explain this one.) lo is veridical and indefinite (more or less, I think that's the consensus, right?), meaning that it roughly works like indefinite article in English, and also says "this thing that is REALLY...". So, you can't really say lo crida because there aren't any around. (Well, this is also more complicated than that... But we have been arguing about it for months and it cant well be explained in one post... least of all by me.) > I'm not sure why {fa'u} was used in the last bridi, rather than, say, > {ce'o}. This way the sentence means "Each time a stomack exploded the fox went around and cheerfully said [at the first explosion] one, then [at the next explosion] two, then [at the next explosion] three..." If ce'o were used, it would mean something like "Each time a stomack exploded the fox circled and cheerfully said [each time all these:] one, then two, then three..." > > .ibabo ca le nu le lorxu cu barle'a lei ri panzi le kevna kei le gunse > > cu mutce darnu bu'u le lalxu .i le lorxu cu barle'a lei ri panzi noi > > ba'o tabybi'o > > Again, I'd question the use of {lebna}. > Thespatial tenses confuse me here; earlier, the goose went far away by > route of the lake; but now the goose is far away _at_ the lake? Yes. What is so strange about it? If the lake is five miles across, and you swim to the far coast, when you get to the third mile you're already far away from the coast where you entered the water, pe'ipei? > > .i lu mo e'enai sei le lorxu cu cusku li'u .i co'a klaku > > > > .ibabo ly tcefengu gi'e cusku lu ai mi ba sudgau le lalxe li'u .i ly > > pinxe ce'o pinxe mu'i le nu sudgau le lalxe .i ku'i ki'unai le nu > > mutce pinxe na snada le nu sudgau le lalxe .i le ly betfu ba'o plana > > binxo .i ly darkla ca'o le nu cirko lo djacu ra'i le trixe .i ly > > jdesku lu o'i e'u ju'i kinli pezli ko na batci mi li'u > > {lalxe} should be {lalxu}, no? > Could {le ly betfu ba'o plana binxo} also be written {le ly betfu ba'o > plana} or {le ly betfo ba'o binxo (lo/le) plana}? le ly. betfu ba'o plana binxo means The fox's stomack finished getting bloated (and the fox is fat). le ly. betfu ba'o plana means The fox's stomack finished being bloated (and the fox is fat no more). le ly. betfo ba'o binxo lo/le plana means The fox's stomack finished becoming a/the bloated thing. The lo variant corresponds to the given sentence pretty closely, though neither quite capture the whole sense of the English sentence (i.e. the stomack is now a bloated thing, but not necessarily a stomack any more. What the English sentence is really saying is that the stomack became bloated stomack, and nobody in its right mind would ever consider the sentence to mean that the stomack became bloated VCR. The latter possibility is in lojban translation easily visible). The le variant is not what you want, because of its definiteness, i.e. There is this thing you know of that you'd describe as fat and that is what fox's stomack has turned into. (compare English: The cocoon turned into THE new butterfly. How does that sound?) > The meaning of the last two sentences seems very weird to me. Is > "The fox dared to go while she was losing water from her back. She > cried out in warning, 'Be careful! Sharp leaf, don't cut me!'" a > correct translation? Where's the fox going? What on earth is a {kinli > pezli}? Doesn't really matter, I guess. The point is, she actually WALKED with all that water in her (or maybe driven a car, but I sincerely doubt that). I guess your translation is correct, 'cause I translated the same way. I'd say cactus needle, or agave (is that how it's called in English?) or something such. > > .i badri je klaku klama fo le cmana .ize'iku lo kilpezli ly batci > > .i zo pof .i ly spoja > > .i.uanai ma badri je klaku klama fo le cmana > > Any particular reason you use the lujvo {kilpelzi} here and the tanru > {kinli pelzi} above, or is it just stylistic? The latter. kilni pezli has greater range of meanings than kilpezli (actually, kilpezli can only have one), but as I see it here they are used in the same context and meaning. > fo'e mi'e. dilyn. trs,ton. fa'o, maybe? Yes, I guess so... co'o doi dilyn. mi'e. goran. -- Learn languages! The more langs you know, the more incomprehensible you can get e'udoCILreleiBANgu.izo'ozo'onairoBANguteDJUnobedocubanRI'a.ailekadonaka'eSELjmi