Message-Id: <m0s8tcx-0009acC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Tue, 9 May 1995 13:53:59 EDT
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Re: ci cribe
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 1978
Lines: 61

And:
> > To get the second meaning, I would say:
> >         le ci cribe cu batci rori
>
> This doesn't make much sense to me. It seems to me to mean
> "Each of the three bears bit each of itself" - daft.

Well, I tried to give it some meaning. I don't know what is
the meaning of quantifying a variable that is already quantified.

What do these mean:

        ro da voi cribe zo'u da batci ro da

        ro da voi cribe zo'u da batci su'o da

        ro da voi cribe zo'u da batci re da

They are either meaningless, or they have to be interpreted as
if the second quantification is a subselection from the first,
where the new {da} is properly a new variable.

I would say they mean, respectively:

        Each bear bit each bear.

        Each bear bit at least one of the bears.

        Each bear bit two of the bears.


> > In this case, the prenex form would be:
> >         ro da voi cribe ku'o ro de voi cribe zo'u: da batci de
> >         For each x of what I'm calling bears, for each y of what
> >         I'm calling bears: x bites y.
>
> Right. And it would be nice to have a logically coherent and
> not too cumbersome way to say it.

Why is my proposed solution not logically coherent? It seems to be
the most reasonable interpretation of a re-quantification of an
already bound variable.


> > A more common way of speaking would probably be:
> >         lei ci cribe cu batci ri
> >         The three bears bite themselves.
>
> "bear bit itself", "a bear threesome bit itself".
> It's not really a satisfactory way of saying "each of the bears
> bit each of the bears".

No, of course not. I just meant that it's a much more likely
thing to say. If you are walking by and see three bears biting
themselves, and want to point it out to someone, you will say
{lei ci cribe cu batci ri}. It is very unlikely that they will
be so organized that each one bites each one. You are more
likely to describe a single event, not nine events, with one
sentence.

Jorge