Message-Id: <m0sObOX-0000YjC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:49:55 EDT
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Another question about imperatives
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 4015
Lines: 102

la kris cusku di'e

> I wasn't sure about that -- I thought .e connected two sumti within the
> context of a particular place, rather than conjoining the places themselves.
>  I.e. you could say "ne'i le botpi .e le tanxe" for "in the bottle and also
> in the box" but not "ne'i le botpi .e ne'i le tanxe".  Or can you do both?

The first is definitely right. I think you can't do the second (although
the parser accepts it, but comes up with some strange stuff) so my translation
was wrong. {ne'i le botpi e ne'ibo le tanxe} is right too, but I have
no idea what it means.

> >> .i secau le nalylogji prenu loi cteki cu na zasti
> >i ienai i naku piro loi nu cteki cu racli  i ku'i pisu'o ri ja'a go'i
>
> .i pe'i na go'i .i cu'u le'e nuncteki sarji loi nu cteki cu se krinu ledu'u
> le'e turni le'e pamei prenu cu zmadu leka racli pilno le jdini

i mi na jinvi di'u  i pe'i le'e pamei prenu na ponse le jdini poi banzu lei
so'u se nitcu be lo'e cecmu  i mu'a lo cecmu cu nitcu le nu ro cmima cu
se ctuca  i ku'i na cumki fa le nu ctuca ro cmima secau le nu cteki

> .i da'i
> la'edi'u jetnu .inaja loi nu cteki cu se krinu le po'o kamnalracli

i mi na jimpe la'e di'u

> >> .i
> >> (to paunai le te cteki gi'i le ve cteki cu nalylogji .i la'edi'u te jinvi
> toi)
> >i va'o lo prane munje lei te cteki lei ve cteki cu mintu
>
> .i cinri .i da'i do pu cusku lu le te cteki le ve cteki cu mintu li'u .inaja
> na cumki ki'u ledu'u le jdini cu na muvdu .i ku'i do cusku le frica pe tu'a
> zo lei

i go'i  i le pamei prenu na ve cteki

> .i ku'i pe'i lei te cteki goi ty. na ka'e logji mintu lei ve cteki goi vy.

i ki'u ma  i le cecmu cu te cteki gi'e ve cteki
i sa'e le cecmu cu ve cteki fi le cmima

> .i ne'i lo'e gubnyturni vy. cu su'opimu loi seltru

i xu do na krici le du'u lei prenu cu turni lei prenu  i mi na go'i
i ku'i le nu ja'a go'i cu prane se troci

> .i ty. cu piro loi seltru
> .i da'i piro loi seltru cu sarji le cteki .inaja cteki naje seldunda

i na go'i  i mi sarji le nu ro da te cteki  i mi sarji le te bilga
i le nu dunda na te bilga

> .i lo'enu cteki cu flalu

i go'i  i va'o lo prane munje le te flalu cu mintu le xe flalu

> .i lo'e flalu cu na sarcu secau lo'e zerpre

i cizra  i ki'u ma  i lei flalu cu sarcu le nu ganzu

>.i da'i
> na zasti fa so'epa cteki nalpleji zerpre .inaja le cteki cu na jetnu cteki

i le cteki cu binxo ma

> (to mi casnu maugi lo smuni be zo cteki gi lo se ckaji be loi remna toi)

i ji'a secau lo'e zerpre le cecmu cu nitcu le nu jajygau loi jdini kei
lei so'u terzukte


> Actually, I rented an apartment for a couple months in downtown Kukbraun
> (the capital city of Lojbanistan).  It was interesting reading over the
> rental agreement because the lojbani lawyers have an unusual style of
> writing.  They fill in all places, and never use "zo'e".

Do you have a copy, or at least a sample? What do they fill all the
places with? Every time they use {lo} they multiply the unfilled
places, because {lo broda} is {lo broda be zo'e bei zo'e bei zo'e...}

> For sumti they use
> either veridicials or explicitly defined anaphora with goi, or cmene; the
> only time you'll see "le" is when it's defined by goi ("la kris bogart goi
> le xabju...")  They tend to use prenexes a lot; which aren't strictly
> necessary but it gives the contract a sort of intellectual air which helps
> justify their fees.  They also have some specialized lujvo they use.  But
> all in all it's closer to colloquial klaji lojban than English Legalese is
> to regular English.

Also, if the lawyers like to conceptualize things differently, like And
proposes, then they can have even more fun than in English, where concepts
are in some sense much more settled already.

> (Unfortunately I didn't stay long in Kukbraun; I got fired from the coffee
> shop I was working at for speaking metaphorically to the customers :-)  )

Was that le ckafybarja by any chance? There were some weird stories published
here about a guy who worked there, but I think it probably wasn't you.

Jorge