Message-Id: <m0sRLP5-0000YjC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:18:32 -0500
Reply-To:     "Steven M. Belknap" <sbelknap@UIC.EDU>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         "Steven M. Belknap" <sbelknap@UIC.EDU>
Subject:      lo gunma nabmi
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 3822
Lines: 102

There is a problem with continuous versus discrete descriptions of mass.
Consider the following definitions:

*wheat, x1 is a quantity of | [grain] of species/strain x2 /:/ /=/ maxri (xri)
*corn, x1 is a quantity of maize/| [grain] of species/strain x2 /:/ /=/
zumri (zmu)
*corn, x1 is grain/[British: |]/cereal from plant/species x2 /:/ /=/ gurni (gru)
&barley,                                                    x1 of bavmi

*barley, x1 is a quantity of | [grain] of species/strain x2 /:/ /=/ bavmi
*bean (coffee), x1 is made of/contains/is a quantity of coffee from
source/|/grain x2 /:/ [brew based on a seed/|/grain; e.g. also chicory
coffee, decaf, postum] /=/ ckafi (kaf)
*bean (soya), x1 is a quantity of soya [grain/|] of species/strain x2 /:/
/=/ sobde (sob so'e)
*bean, x1 is a |/pea/leguminous seed from plant [legume] x2 /:/ /=/ dembi (deb)
*cultivar (| of trees), x2 of: x1 is a tree of species/| x2 /:/ /=/ tricu (ric)
*nut, x1 is a | [body-part: hard-shelled fruit] from plant/species x2 with
shell x3 and kernel x4 /:/ [also x4 nucleus, center (= velnarge for place
reordering)] /=/ narge (nag)
*nutmeat, x4 of: x1 is a nut [body-part: hard-shelled |] from plant/species
x2 with shell x3 and kernel/| x4 /:/ [also x4 nucleus, center (= velnarge
for place reordering)] /=/ narge (nag)
*nutriment, x1 is food/feed/| for x2; x1 is edible/gives nutrition to x2
/:/ /=/ cidja (dja)
*nutrition (gives |), x1 is food/feed/nutriment for x2; x1 is edible/gives
| to x2 /:/ /=/ cidja (dja)
*nuts, x1 is the edible x2 portion of plant x3; x1 is a vegetable /:/ [note
that fruits and | are also vegetables; generally this word will be used for
either the general category of edible plants, or for non-fruit vegetables
(= nalrutstagi)] /=/ stagi

*copper, x1 is made of/contains/is a quantity of | (Cu); [metaphor:
reddish, electrical conductor] /:/ /=/ tunka (tuk)
*water (aqueous), x1 is made of/contains/is a quantity/expanse of |;
(adjective:) x1 is aqueous/[aquatic] /:/ [aquatic (= jaupli)] /=/ djacu
(jac jau)


I would argue that it should be possible to describe these concepts either
discretely or continuously. The clearest demonstration of inconsistency is
demonstrated by the dembi/rismi definitions. If I go to the store and buy
either navy beans or basmati rice, I pay by the pound. I do not buy
individual beans or rice grains. Why then is dembi defined discretely (an
instance of one or more) & rismi defined continuously (a quantity)?

Why not allow a lojbanistani to say either

loi rismi

or

lei rismi

depending on whether he/she wishes to emphasize the discrete or continuous
nature of the rice/water/copper? Both senses are used in English. /rice/ is
used for the continuous concept and /rice grain/ for the discrete. Are we
to be forced to remember arbitrary distinctions like the feminine/masculine
cases of romance languages? (le fenetre? la fenetre?)

I noticed this in trying to understand jorge's objections to my use of

lei djacu

He pointed out this could mean something other than

/a bunch of molecules of water/

which is what I want it to mean. It could mean

/a bunch of raindrops/

for example. (Apparently jorge thinks in lojban!) I would suggest that one
or more raindrops be described in lojban as

le litki bratu

and that

lei djacu

be reserved for water considered as discrete molecules of H2O.

loi djacu

would then be water considered as a blobbish continuous mass. IMHO the
definitions of concepts which can commonly be considered discretely or
continuously ought to be adjusted to allow for either continuous or
discrete use with lei or loi.

Am I all wet?

-stivn


Steven M. Belknap, M.D.
Assistant Professor of Clinical Pharmacology and Medicine
University of Illinois College of Medicine at Peoria

email: sbelknap@uic.edu
Voice: 309/671-3403
Fax:   309/671-8413