Message-Id: <m0sOK63-0000YjC@xiron>
Date:         Wed, 21 Jun 1995 03:20:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      dictionary and adjectives
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 3248
Lines: 65

Lojbab dumps a couple of weeks worth on you all at once again!

>la lojbab cusku di'e
> > Because this is a Lojban-English dictionary listing.  What does "terdi
> > bolci" mean?  "terrestrial sphere".  To translate the Lojban, you need
> > the adjectival English meaning.  Then in turn, the English order entry
> > for terresrial will also list "terdi".  Sure "pe le terdi" might also
> > work, but no one will look up "pe le terdi" in a dictionary - they will
> > look up terdi by itself.
>
>But would you accept {le remna poi ke'a terdi} for "the terrestial
>(i.e., earthbound) human"?  That's what would bother me.  I'd rather see
>the note changed from (adjective) to (as used in tanru), or some such,
>if this usage isn't allowed.

Simple answer:  "as used in tanru" takes up more space in an already
oversized dictionary entry.  The amount of clarification gained is small
compared to the amount of words.  It may not seem like a lot, but
"adjective" occurs 737 times in the current English Lojban dictionary,
which is built from the gismu list semi-automatically.  Adding even 7
characters to each of those occurances is 5K of text, and that adds up.
Average published books are only 300K bytes or so of text, so the
dictionary is already way past a decent sized book.  We are looking for
ways to further abbrevaite, rather than expand, in order to shorten the
dictionary volume.

(If we never intended to publish a hardcopy dictionary, we might not
care.  Computer files that are 1-2 Meg aren't all that humongous these
days.  But people want that hardcopy.)

If we were comprehensive in marking all places where we should use the
"adjective" annotation, it with be much more than that, but for the most
part, the adjectival definitions are in the miscellany after column 160,
unannotated.  Hence you should be happy this is marked at all %^)

2nd answer is that "le remna poi ke'a terdi" is only vaguely adjectival
itself.  In English, it is true that adjectives can be used thusly - as
predicate nominatives, but the traditional association of adjectives is
as modifiers i.e. "in tanru".

I intend that there be 1-2 sentences of explanatory notes of the intent
regarding the term "Adjective" in the published dictionary.

> > ...And come
> > Logfest in August, I'm going to be called on the carpet my the attending
> > members for not having the dictionary done again.
>
>Speaking purely selfishly, I don't think I'd find a dictionary
>terribly useful.  Textual search is a wonderful thing.

That is because you are involved with Lojban mostly using a computer.
But we have a lot of disenfranchised Lojbanists right now who want
hardcopy, not to mention that the lack of a hardcopy dictionary hurts
our credibility as a "real language".  Entries in "Books in Print" mean
a lot!

In addition there ARE computer users who like a hardcopy dictionary as
well.  I know that I use a hardcopy dictionary rather than call up an
electronic one, when I want to look up an English word.  And textual
search won't much help you if/when you get into trying to speak Lojban
live. there are a lot of E-words that if you do a text search on them,
you'll get dozens of spurious responses - "adjective" being an obvious
one in the current context.

lojbab