From <@uga.cc.uga.edu:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Sat Jul 22 07:55:35 1995 Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu (uga.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.5]) by locke.ccil.org (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id HAA16175 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 07:55:32 -0400 Message-Id: <199507221155.HAA16175@locke.ccil.org> Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4266; Sat, 22 Jul 95 07:48:16 EDT Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7812; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 07:48:16 -0400 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 07:48:38 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: noha To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu Cc: lojbab@access1.digex.net Status: OR I don't think I posted the following in my last blort of responses, though I intended to. I won't pretend to understand the bulk of the afterthought scope proposal, especially because And seemed so confused about which cmavo go with which selma'o/structures. I can deal with one question though. And: >The current logic of {nei} and {noa} seems rather odd to me - it seems >to give an infinite regression of bridis that contain copies of >themselves. I've probably misunderstood {nei} and {noa}, but if I >haven't maybe they could be reassigned. [I guess they are intended to >be used with gadri, e.g. {lo te noa}, but I don't see how that avoids >infinite regression.] nei and no'a are both intended to handle reflexives that cannot be handled with the vo'a series. If you are in a 1st level subordinate bridi you can use vo'a to refer reflexively to main level bridi, le go'i etc. to refer to sumti in previous bridi, and le nei, le se nei etc. to reflex subordinate sumti. e.g. la djef. jinvi ledu'u la djan. cu klama le zarci le zdani fu le karce po le nei Jeff opines that John goes to the store from the house in his (John's) car. la djef. jinvi ledu'u la djan. cu klama le zarci le zdani fu le karce po vo'a Jeff opines that John goes to the store from the house in his (Jeff's) car. Clearly ri/ra/ru could get pretty confusing in this kkind of nested structure. In the above example "le no'a" would be equivalent to vo'a. The next outer bridi happens to be the outermost. We needed to be prepared for more than two levels of nested subordination, since it happens (and not all that rarely) in Lojban. When you have more than two levels, then no'a allows specific reflexive reference to intermediate bridi levels. la djef. jinvi ledu'u la djan. cu klama le zarci le zdani fu le karce poi le no'a cu tervecnu Jeff opines that John goes to the store from the house in the car he (John) bought. The degree of usefulness of these words depends on how often people try to write complex structured sentences. The whole setup was created after Michael Helsem used some complex sentences in his letters to me in which the reflexive references were indeterminable. lojbab