Return-Path: <@SEGATE.SUNET.SE:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0sZd63-0000ZFC; Sat, 22 Jul 95 14:51 EET DST Message-Id: Received: from segate.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v0.1a) with SMTP id 8C4E556F ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 13:50:20 +0200 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 07:48:38 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: noha X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu X-cc: lojbab@access1.digex.net To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 2233 Lines: 53 I don't think I posted the following in my last blort of responses, though I intended to. I won't pretend to understand the bulk of the afterthought scope proposal, especially because And seemed so confused about which cmavo go with which selma'o/structures. I can deal with one question though. And: >The current logic of {nei} and {noa} seems rather odd to me - it seems >to give an infinite regression of bridis that contain copies of >themselves. I've probably misunderstood {nei} and {noa}, but if I >haven't maybe they could be reassigned. [I guess they are intended to >be used with gadri, e.g. {lo te noa}, but I don't see how that avoids >infinite regression.] nei and no'a are both intended to handle reflexives that cannot be handled with the vo'a series. If you are in a 1st level subordinate bridi you can use vo'a to refer reflexively to main level bridi, le go'i etc. to refer to sumti in previous bridi, and le nei, le se nei etc. to reflex subordinate sumti. e.g. la djef. jinvi ledu'u la djan. cu klama le zarci le zdani fu le karce po le nei Jeff opines that John goes to the store from the house in his (John's) car. la djef. jinvi ledu'u la djan. cu klama le zarci le zdani fu le karce po vo'a Jeff opines that John goes to the store from the house in his (Jeff's) car. Clearly ri/ra/ru could get pretty confusing in this kkind of nested structure. In the above example "le no'a" would be equivalent to vo'a. The next outer bridi happens to be the outermost. We needed to be prepared for more than two levels of nested subordination, since it happens (and not all that rarely) in Lojban. When you have more than two levels, then no'a allows specific reflexive reference to intermediate bridi levels. la djef. jinvi ledu'u la djan. cu klama le zarci le zdani fu le karce poi le no'a cu tervecnu Jeff opines that John goes to the store from the house in the car he (John) bought. The degree of usefulness of these words depends on how often people try to write complex structured sentences. The whole setup was created after Michael Helsem used some complex sentences in his letters to me in which the reflexive references were indeterminable. lojbab