Return-Path: <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET> Received: from kantti.helsinki.fi by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0svoiD-0000ZOC; Thu, 21 Sep 95 19:43 EET DST Received: from fiport.funet.fi (fiport.funet.fi [128.214.109.150]) by kantti.helsinki.fi (8.6.12+Emil1.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id TAA11719 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:43:00 +0300 Received: from CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (MAILER@CUNYVMV2) by FIPORT.FUNET.FI (PMDF V5.0-3 #2494) id <01HVJSR5T6YO000WC3@FIPORT.FUNET.FI> for veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:44:00 +0200 (EET) Received: from CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@CUNYVM) by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6278; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:42:18 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:24:54 -0700 From: "John E. Clifford" Subject: Re: quantifiers In-reply-to: <199509200529.BAA04505@access4.digex.net> Sender: Lojban list Reply-to: "John E. Clifford" Message-id: <01HVJSR6GTG6000WC3@FIPORT.FUNET.FI> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT To: Logical Language Group Cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1431 Lines: 28 On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Logical Language Group wrote: > Not having followed the argument that led up to this "ro broda" proposal, > can you summarize for me what the alternatives are, and which one you are > proposing. And if this applies to ci broda identically. > > Specifically, I am curious as to what "ro lo broda" means under the current > argument, so I know why you are calling it the "odd notion" interpretation > of "ro broda". > > lojbab > The argument goes that we have somehow gotten to the point where _ro da poi broda_ = _ro lo broda_ = _ro broda_ and, since the first of these is given as having existential import, all the rest do too. This leaves people who want a universal without existential import with no short form, only the logic forms with unrestricted quantifier and "if" of fairly complex forms with double descriptors (and dubious import). Of the three identities, the one that links _ro broda_ to the other two seems the weakest, relying on neither usage nor fundamental logical principles. So I suggested we might separate _ro broda_ off from the others and use it for non-commital quantifier form. I suppose this proposal has conssequences for expressions like _ci broda, but they will be minor, since it mainly affects existential import, which _ci broda_ already has. It is, thus, _ro broda_, not _ro lo broda_ that gets the odd reading, i.e., the one without existential import pc>|83n