Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 13:57:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject: Re: coi za'e jboterymri
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To: Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Reply-to: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
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> > la and joi mi za'o katna loi mokca di'e
> > > kiu ma? lu katna le mokca liu se cusku tahi le ka sidbo simsa cei
> >                                                                 ^^^no'u
> kie, jaa ija lu {le ka sidbo simsa cei me lae zoi gy metaphor gy} liu,
> xu?
 
i ju'ocu'i  i zo cei flalu se pilno fi tu'a zo broda  i ku'i pe'i
le do selcusku cu se jimpe
 
> do cao katna le mokca a le bae tcemlinalmokca - oinaipei?
 
i ie i'a/i'anaise'i
 
> Would the grammar allow {zaonai}, or some combination with {pu},
> for "already" (and with {ba} for "still")?
 
I think {za'onai} is supposed to just negate the sentence with {za'o}.
As for combinations, the best I can think of is {pujeca} for "still",
and {cajeba} for "already", but I don't like them much, they are
only vaguely similar to what is wanted, and besides connected tenses
are hard to combine with other tenses. "Already" and "still" should
be easily combinable with {pu} and {ba}.
 
> I had understood {zao} differently. I thought it is for events the
> technical term for which is "accomplishments" (and to which I suspect
> {puu} is supposed to correspond), that have an inherent point of
> completion, where the activity that brings about the accomplishment
> continues after the result has been accomplished. For example, you
> could paint a door until it is painted, but then continue to paint
> it. That would, I had supposed, be superfective painting. But I
> haven't encountered this notion outside Lojban (the index to Comrie's
> to'e brilliant book on aspect has no entry for Superfective).
 
I don't think the two notions are all that different. For states
there is usually no natural completion point, so if {za'o} is to mean
anything with them it has to mean "beyond the expected perduration
of the state".
 
For accomplishments, the completion would seem to be the natural end
of the event, in the absence of other context. I'm not saying that
{za'o} and "still" are identical, just that they have a big overlap.
It seems like it would be normal to say "why are you still painting
the door?" when it is already fully painted.
 
But the door being fully painted may not be the natural end of the
event under some circumstances. If we agree that I will be painting
the door for half an hour, and you find me still painting it after
one hour, I think that {za'o} is appropriate even if the door is not
fully painted, because the expected ending point of that particular
event was after half an hour.
 
> > > > i la'e zoi gy purple prose gy klesi loi prosa ma?
> > > te gohi ka jgena plana tolmilxe kairbarokoko dukse
> > xamgu mupli ki'e
> mupli pehisehinaipei? oi oi!
 
i u'i co'o mi'e xorxes