Message-Id: <m0sykfr-0000ZSC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Fri, 29 Sep 1995 19:52:10 +0100
Reply-To:     ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: CONLANG: Introducing _The Babel Text_
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 7044
Lines: 156

And:
> > > 1A.  Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
> > > 1LB. i piro le munje cu se bangu pada gi'e selkau le ka tavla
> > >      fo makau
> > i piro le munje se bangu pa da
>                  ^cu
> i xu do na nelci le tolmilxe dukse zirpu prosa

lo jbobau jufra se ckaji lo dukse be valsi i xamgu fa le nu troci
lo dahi tordu

> > > 2A.  As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled
> > >      there.
> > > 2LB. i ca le nu litru fa'a le stuna kei lei remna cu penmi lo foldi
> > >      la cinar i co'a xabju fy
> > i ca le jai fau sunkla be le remna goi koa ku koa loi pittumla cu
> > penmi gie coa xabju
> i ie zo pitytumla cu xagmau zo foldi i mi nelci lu i ca le nu sunkla
> kei lei remna goi ko'a lo pitytumla cu penmi gi'e co'a xabju li'u

ie i mi stidi die:
  i ca le nu lei remna goi ko'a sunkla kei ko'a lo pitytumla cu penmi
  gi'e co'a xabju li'u

> > > 3A.  They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake
> > >      them thoroughly."  They used brick instead of stone, and tar
> > >      for mortar.
> > > 3LB. i ry simsku lu e'u mi'o loi kitybli cu zbasu gi'e mo'u
> > >      seltokygau li'u i ry pilno loi kitybli peseba'i loi rokci i
> > >      loi tarla peseba'i loi rokpu'o
> > i koa voa cusku lu eu mio loi kitybli cu zbasu gie mou seltokgau liu
> > i pilno ge nui loi kitybli se bahi loi rocki nuu gi nui loi tarla fi
> > le terpli be loe rokpesxu nuu
> I don't like termsets much, but besides that, I don't think {pilno loi
> kitybli se ba'i loi rokci} is right. {loi rokci} are replaced by
> {loi kitybli}, not by their use. You could say {pilno loi kitybli
> se ba'i le nu pilno loi rokci}, but that's too much.

I see your objection. I don't think your {se bahi le nu} is an
improvement. I also don't think your {peseba'i} is better.
The odd thing is that {se bahi} is a BAI, when semantically it
is really an enriched version of {enai}. I guess I'd go with
{loi kitybli enai loi rokci}.

> I should take this opportunity to ask again for an extension of the
> grammar to allow BAIs as connectives. Then we could say {pilno loi
> kitybli ba'ibo loi rokci}. I don't like using {pe} either, as I had
> to do.

That's a good idea.

> I guess {rokpesxu} is better than {rokpu'o} too.

> From: Don Wiggins <dwiggins@BFSEC.BT.CO.UK>
> May I suggest wall-hole-sealant or wall-gap-filler as better
> metaphors for mortar does (don't use brick-glue or brick-stick).
> Sorry I don't know suitable gismu.

I can't think what rockpaste could be, other than mortar. But lots
of stuff can be wall-hole-fillers. I am not persuaded.

> > > 4A.  Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a
> > >      tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name
> > >      for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole
> > >      earth."
> > > 4LB. i ry cusku lu e'u mi'o zmadu lo tcadu e lo galdi'u poi le
> > >      cpana be ke'a cu lamji le tsani ija'ebo mi'o misno gi'enai
> > >      pulce fi le terdi sefta li'u
> > i koa cusku lu eu mio sevahu ri zbasu lo tcadu e lo ri galdiu gie
> > kupkla be le tsani tefie li duu nu mio misno gienai toljmaji fi ro
> > terdi liu
> i ko'a cusku lu e'u mi'o seva'u ri zbasu lo tcadu e lo ri galdi'u be
> fe'e mo'u le tsani tefi'e le nu mi'o misno gi'enai toljmaji piro le
> terdi li'u

{fee mou} is very nice. Now John Cowan's pointed {fee} out, I'll
have to remember it.
I think I prefer {ro remterdi} to {piro le terdi}. I'm a bit uneasy
about masses.
{tefi'e le nu}: I'd prefer {lo dahi nu}.

> I think {toljmaji} should be "x1 is dispersed/scattered over x2 from
> x3". This is consistent with keeping x2 as the destination and x3 as
> the origin, I don't think {to'e} should reverse that.

Fine. I wasn't sure which way it should go. Either you reverse
origin/destination or you reverse together-place/apart-place.

> > > 5A.  But the Lord camedown to see the city and the tower that the
> > >      men were building.
> > > 5LB. i ku'i le nolcei cu dzikla tezu'e le nu catlu le tcadu e le
> > >      galdi'u poi lei remna ke'a ca'o zmadu
> > i kui lo pa Cevni cu nitkla fau lo mukti be lo dahi nu voa catlu le
> > tcadu e le galdiu gie cao se zbasu be koa
> Isn't {mu'i} better than {fau lo mukti}?

My reason was that {fau lo mukti} explicitly says that it's the
nitkla event that is the mukti. {mui} is vaguer.

> > > 6A.  The Lord said, "If as one people speaking the same language
> > >      they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do
> > >      will be impossible for them.
> > > 6LB. i le nolcei cu cusku lu za'a lei remna noi se bangu pa da cu
> > >      ba'oco'a zmadu ti ija'o no selpla ba nalselka'e ry
> > i lo pa Cevni cusku lo se duu ganai ge koa se bangu be pa da gi coa
> > gasnu be ti gi no da fa koa ge te zukte gi na se kakne kei
> I don't think lo pa Cevni is really saying this. Cy is asserting the
> antecedent, and Cy is also making an inference, which {ganai... gi...}
> doesn't do.

Well, I'd say that is in the pragmatics, in both the English and my
Lojban versions.

> > > 7A.  Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will
> > >      not understand each other."
> > > 7LB. i ai mi dzikla gi'e fi'urgau le bangu ry ja'e le nu na simjmi
> > >      li'u
> > e lu ai mi nitkla gie rinka lo nu da koa ge cfipu gi bangu i jae bo
> > koa voa na jimpe liu
> There's the problem that lo se jimpe is something understood, not
> someone understood. {simjmi} sort of avoids this problem by lujvo
> magic.

Okay. {koa voa na seltavjmi} or {koa voa na terskujmi}.

> > > 8A.  So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and
> > >      they stopped building the city.
> > > 8LB. i le nolcei fairgau ry piro le terdi i ry de'a zmadu le tcadu
> > i se mui bo lo pa Cevni rinka lo nu toljmaji fi ro terdi i cou zbasu
> > le tcadu
> I think {piro terdi} or {piro le terdi}. I suppose you don't mean
> "each earth", although technically it seems to come to the same thing.

See above. I suggest {ro remterdi}, where remterdi = x1 is a portion of
the earth's surface - or something like that.

Incidentally, I was delighted that you kept writing {zmadu} for {zbasu}.
Stupid mistakes like that are usually made only by me. Even Jorge
kae se snuti srera, I thought to myself.

> > > 9A.  That is why it was called Babel -- because there the Lord
> > >      confused the language of the whole world.  From there the Lord
> > >      scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
> > > 9LB. i ki'u la'e di'u ty se cmene zo babel i ki'u le nu bu'u ty le
> > >      nolcei pu fi'urgau le bangu be le munje i fe'eco'a ty le nolcei
> > >      fairgau ry le pirosi'e terdi sefta
> > lae diu krinu le nu se cmene zo babel kei fa lo nu ro da poi munje zou
> > pa Cevni cfipgau ro bangu be da i fe le stuzi gau lo pa Cevni cu
> > toljmaji fi ro terdi
> Same comment about toljmaji: fe <-> fi. Also {ro munje} and {ro terdi}
> are not really the same as the whole world and the whole earth.

Okay. {ro munje} -> {ro remmunje}, x1 is a part of the universe.

---
And