Message-Id: <199509280254.WAA13756@locke.ccil.org>
Date:         Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:32:14 EDT
Reply-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Re: CONLANG: Introducing _The Babel Text_
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: OR

And:
> > 1A.  Now the whole world had one language and a common speech.
> > 1LB. i piro le munje cu se bangu pada gi'e selkau le ka tavla fo makau
>
> i piro le munje se bangu pa da
                 ^cu

i xu do na nelci le tolmilxe dukse zirpu prosa


> > 2A.  As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled
> >      there.
> > 2LB. i ca le nu litru fa'a le stuna kei lei remna cu penmi lo foldi
> >      la cinar i co'a xabju fy
>
> i ca le jai fau sunkla be le remna goi koa ku koa loi pittumla cu penmi
> gie coa xabju

i ie zo pitytumla cu xagmau zo foldi i mi nelci lu i ca le nu sunkla kei
lei remna goi ko'a lo pitytumla cu penmi gi'e co'a xabju li'u

>
> > 3A.  They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them
> >      thoroughly."  They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar.
> > 3LB. i ry simsku lu e'u mi'o loi kitybli cu zbasu gi'e mo'u seltokygau
> >      li'u i ry pilno loi kitybli peseba'i loi rokci i loi tarla
> >      peseba'i loi rokpu'o
>
> i koa voa cusku lu eu mio loi kitybli cu zbasu gie mou seltokgau liu
> i pilno ge nui loi kitybli se bahi loi rocki nuu gi nui loi tarla fi
> le terpli be loe rokpesxu nuu

I don't like termsets much, but besides that, I don't think {pilno loi
kitybli se ba'i loi rokci} is right. {loi rokci} are replaced by
{loi kitybli}, not by their use. You could say {pilno loi kitybli
se ba'i le nu pilno loi rokci}, but that's too much.

I should take this opportunity to ask again for an extension of the
grammar to allow BAIs as connectives. Then we could say {pilno loi kitybli
ba'ibo loi rokci}. I don't like using {pe} either, as I had to do.

I guess {rokpesxu} is better than {rokpu'o} too.

> > 4A.  Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower
> >      that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for
> >      ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
> > 4LB. i ry cusku lu e'u mi'o zmadu lo tcadu e lo galdi'u poi le cpana be
> >      ke'a cu lamji le tsani ija'ebo mi'o misno gi'enai pulce fi le terdi
> >      sefta li'u
>
> i koa cusku lu eu mio sevahu ri zbasu lo tcadu e lo ri galdiu gie
> kupkla be le tsani tefie li duu nu mio misno gienai toljmaji fi ro
> terdi liu

i ko'a cusku lu e'u mi'o seva'u ri zbasu lo tcadu e lo ri galdi'u be fe'e
mo'u le tsani tefi'e le nu mi'o misno gi'enai toljmaji piro le terdi li'u

I think {toljmaji} should be "x1 is dispersed/scattered over x2 from x3".
This is consistent with keeping x2 as the destination and x3 as the origin,
I don't think {to'e} should reverse that.

> > 5A.  But the Lord camedown to see the city and the tower that the men
> >      were building.
> > 5LB. i ku'i le nolcei cu dzikla tezu'e le nu catlu le tcadu e le
> >      galdi'u poi lei remna ke'a ca'o zmadu
>
> i kui lo pa Cevni cu nitkla fau lo mukti be lo dahi nu voa catlu le
> tcadu e le galdiu gie cao se zbasu be koa

Isn't {mu'i} better than {fau lo mukti}?

> > 6A.  The Lord said, "If as one people speaking the same language they
> >      have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be
> >      impossible for them.
> > 6LB. i le nolcei cu cusku lu za'a lei remna noi se bangu pa da cu
> >      ba'oco'a zmadu ti ija'o no selpla ba nalselka'e ry
>
> i lo pa Cevni cusku lo se duu ganai ge koa se bangu be pa da gi coa
> gasnu be ti gi no da fa koa ge te zukte gi na se kakne kei

I don't think lo pa Cevni is really saying this. Cy is asserting the
antecedent, and Cy is also making an inference, which {ganai... gi...}
doesn't do.

> > 7A.  Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not
> >      understand each other."
> > 7LB. i ai mi dzikla gi'e fi'urgau le bangu ry ja'e le nu na simjmi li'u
>
> e lu ai mi nitkla gie rinka lo nu da koa ge cfipu gi bangu i jae bo
> koa voa na jimpe liu

There's the problem that lo se jimpe is something understood, not
someone understood. {simjmi} sort of avoids this problem by lujvo magic.

> > 8A.  So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they
> >      stopped building the city.
> > 8LB. i le nolcei fairgau ry piro le terdi i ry de'a zmadu le tcadu
>
> i se mui bo lo pa Cevni rinka lo nu toljmaji fi ro terdi i cou zbasu
> le tcadu

I think {piro terdi} or {piro le terdi}. I suppose you don't mean
"each earth", although technically it seems to come to the same thing.

> > 9A.  That is why it was called Babel -- because there the Lord confused
> >      the language of the whole world.  From there the Lord scattered
> >      them over the face of the whole earth.
> > 9LB. i ki'u la'e di'u ty se cmene zo babel i ki'u le nu bu'u ty le
> >      nolcei pu fi'urgau le bangu be le munje i fe'eco'a ty le nolcei
> >      fairgau ry le pirosi'e terdi sefta
>
> lae diu krinu le nu se cmene zo babel kei fa lo nu ro da poi munje zou
> pa Cevni cfipgau ro bangu be da i fe le stuzi gau lo pa Cevni cu
> toljmaji fi ro terdi

Same comment about toljmaji: fe <-> fi. Also {ro munje} and {ro terdi}
are not really the same as the whole world and the whole earth.

co'o mi'e xorxes