Return-Path: Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0t8mX4-0000ZRC; Fri, 27 Oct 95 13:01 EET Message-Id: Received: from listmail.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id 5B1102CF ; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:01:04 +0100 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 01:01:19 -0600 Reply-To: Chris Bogart Sender: Lojban list From: Chris Bogart Subject: Re: Incredible! X-To: lojban@cuvmb.bitnet To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 2172 Lines: 36 >la .and. cusku di'e >> There are 2 kinds of syllable, C(@) and CV. @ is schwa and can be >> omitted between certain consonant pairs. Cmavo are all of form CV >> or CVCV or CVCVCV, etc. Gismu are all of form C(@)CV (with 17 C >> and 5 V, that gives 1445 possible gismu; Lojban actually has 7 V >> phonemes and 22 C phonemes, so that gives 2904 possible gismu). Guaspi does something similar -- its gismu are monosyllabic but can have several consonants at the beginning and end; also it counts some liquids and things as vowels, I think. The use of tones for syntax probably allows some overlap between cmavo and gismu -- not sure about that though. I don't know how the numbers work out for guaspi, but in your scheme you've got the gismu space packed pretty tightly. (1300 gismu out of 1445 or 2904 possible words) I wonder how far you can go with that before the lack of redundancy makes it hard to speak the language in a noisy room or over the phone. The cmavo are already like that, but I only actually use and understand about half of them (less?) so it's hard to know if they'll cause that problem yet. What if we constructed the gismu CCVCV/CVCCV as they are now, generated from the six source languages, but constrained in such a way as to make the CCV portion unique for each gismu. That CCV part would then be the only rafsi for that gismu. I don't think that is possible without using your nalmelbi [pe'i .u'u] consonant cluster scheme, though. Timothy Miller's Ferengi language takes the approach of jamming consonants together willy-nilly with schwas as needed, and it's not a pretty sight (sorry, Timothy!) Could we eke out 1300 by allowing a few more consonant combinations, 3-letter combos ("str") and adding syllabic liquids and sibilants? Throwing "th" and "dh" into the alphabet? Umlauts? Tones? Clicks? Farts and armpit noises? *Anything* but random consonant clusters! :-) [pe'i morphology changes are worth discussing, but I don't actually advocate any change. se'i the language is sufficient as is -- za'a we're only suggesting changes because the jai za'o schedule is giving us too much time on our hands to be perfectionists.]