Return-Path: <@segate.sunet.se:LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@BITMAIL.LSOFT.COM> Received: from segate.sunet.se by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0szWS0-0000ZSC; Mon, 2 Oct 95 00:01 EET Message-Id: Received: from listmail.sunet.se by segate.sunet.se (LSMTP for OpenVMS v0.1a) with SMTP id 5213A11B ; Sun, 1 Oct 1995 23:01:35 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:58:45 +0300 Reply-To: Cyril Slobin Sender: Lojban list From: Cyril Slobin Organization: Institute for Commercial Engineering Subject: Re: tense conversions X-To: jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU, lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: <199510012025.XAA19065@feast.fe.msk.ru>; from "jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU" at Sun, 1 Oct 1995 16:07:30 EDT Content-Length: 1914 Lines: 40 coi I'm sorry - I have read lojban tenses paper this weekend first time, so my ideas may be silly, but newertheless... > Of course, in English "I will go" usually means "I intend to go", even the > etymology of "will" suggests this, but that is not what {ba} means. > With {ba} one claims that a certain relationship will hold at some future > time. If it ends up not holding, then the claim is false, no matter what > were the intentions of anybody involved. Likewise with {pu'o} one claims that the state of the world _now_ is that the event _will_ begin in the future (and probably now we have same pre-events related to this beginning). Of course this claim includes a bit of predicting. I have never seen "inchoative tense" in any language before (except Vorlin, but I know them even worse than Lojban), but I belive (at least grammar tables of both languages forces me think so) that it acts symmetrical to perfective. And with perfective, one can't say that some event is now 'done' (AFAIK it is verbatim translation from latin 'perfectum') unless somewhere in the past it was 'doing'. > le bolci pu'o farlu le loldi le jubme > The ball is about to fall to the floor from the table. .i do cusku lu pu'o .ue farlu fa le bolci li'u > i mi kavbu le bolci le xance ja'e le nu by na farlu > I catch the ball with my hand so that it doesn't fall. I have added one more sentence between yours to illustrate my idea - in the _story_ time your was beliving that ball (inchoative) falls, but this claim (prediction) became false because of your own action. Again - I'm definitely not familiar with the concept, and all above was written just under the first impression. Correct me if I am wrong, please. co'o mi'e kir. -- Cyril Slobin `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, `it means just what I choose it to mean'