Return-Path: Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0t8cQ8-0000ZQC; Fri, 27 Oct 95 02:13 EET Message-Id: Received: from listmail.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id DBC5BE6B ; Fri, 27 Oct 1995 1:13:16 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 17:07:52 -0400 Reply-To: John Cowan Sender: Lojban list From: John Cowan Subject: PROPOSED GRAMMAR CHANGE 36 (rev 2): Clarify vocative phrases X-To: Lojban List To: Veijo Vilva In-Reply-To: from "cowan" at Oct 17, 95 01:50:20 pm Content-Length: 2067 Lines: 51 This is the second version of change 236, revised after discussion with Jorge. CURRENT LANGUAGE: There are three basic kinds of vocative phrases: "DOI name", "DOI selbri", and "DOI sumti". (Here DOI stands for possible multiple COIs with or without following DOI as well). The third case, "DOI sumti", is the general case which can handle whatever is needed with some extra cmavo, since "DOI name" really means "DOI la name", and "DOI selbri" really means "DOI le selbri". Relative clauses are currently allowed after "DOI name", and either before or after the selbri in "DOI selbri". However, if relative clauses precede the selbri, then a full sumti-tail-1 (essentially a description without a descriptor) is permitted. PROPOSED CHANGE: Only allow a selbri in the context "DOI relative-clauses ...". This allows "DOI selbri" to have relative clauses before or after the selbri. In addition, a new rule is added allowing relative clauses both before and after the selbri. Quantifiers are disallowed altogether. Legal cases are: doi pe mi pendo do pendo poi melbi doi pe mi pendo poi melbi all of which are natural and easy to understand. RATIONALE: The current language allows vocative phrases of certain types only if a preposed relative clause is present: "DOI relative-clauses quantifier selbri", "DOI relative-clauses quantifier selbri relative-clauses", "DOI relative-clauses quantifier sumti", and possibly other forms. All of these are meaningful, but their existence makes vocative phrases hard to teach. Nothing is lost by making these forms ungrammatical, because if they are needed, a full sumti can be used instead. ADDITIONAL NOTE: Jorge also proposed the form "DOI relative-clauses sumti", but I reject this, because it would not be clear whether the relative-clauses were to be taken as inside-the-ku or outside. There is no other place where relative clauses can appear before a sumti as such. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban.