Message-Id: <m0tJKoA-0000ZUC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sat, 25 Nov 1995 08:36:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      kelci
To:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Content-Length: 1660
Lines: 51

>CURRENT LANGUAGE:
>
>kelci is defined as
>
>kelci kel     kei  play
>x1 [agent] plays with plaything/toy x2
>9c 116    [play game (= ci'erkei), play competitively (= jvikei)];
>(cf. jivna, jinga, zdile)
>
>PROPOSED CHANGE:
>
>correct the definition to
>
>kelci kel     kei  play
>x1 [agent] plays x2 with plaything/toy/props x3
>9c 116    [x2 is activity (event) or name of the game;
>play game (= ci'erkei), play competitively (= jvikei)];
>(cf. jivna, jinga, zdile)
>
>
>RATIONALE:
>
>Not all games involve props, much less are defined by them.

This would argue for two gismu:  "x1 plays with playthings x2" and "x1
plays at doing x2", since you can play with toys NOT in a systematic
matter that one could call a game, and you can play at a game not using
any props.  Before long with your proposal, we would have 2 zi'o/zil
based forms, and I detest zi'o/zil passionately.

>"I play with dice" does not identify a game, as there are many dice games.

True, but how about "dice-system" after the gismu list example of a
"game" as "ci'erkei", or more vaguely "tu'a loi {dice}"

>"I play the Star Trek drinking game" can only be translated as {mi kelci
>le la tarci pluta ku kinpau velvei ku joi loi vanju

>"I play role-playing games" is currently impossible to express.

mi kelci loi draci ke kelci ciste

There may be another tanru too - see the dictionary, since we DID do
some work on role-playing games a few years back in local conversation
sessions, WERE able to talk about them, and wrote stuff down for
posterity (a rare occurance %^).

I would also consider "xalbo gasnu/zukte" and "zdile gasnu/zukte" to
work for playing "at" something.

lojbab