Return-Path: Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tITDk-0000ZUC; Thu, 23 Nov 95 06:25 EET Message-Id: Received: from listmail.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id 86866CCD ; Thu, 23 Nov 1995 5:25:12 +0100 Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 22:23:27 -0600 Reply-To: "Steven M. Belknap" Sender: Lojban list From: "Steven M. Belknap" To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 2252 Lines: 55 Mark Brickner wrote (please post entire note to lojban list)!: >> As long as the statement "this is a heap" must have either a >> completely true or completely false answer, the transition from heap to >> not-heap is meaninglessly arbitrary. > Peter Schuerman wrote: >Not arbitrary, but subjective. And *yes*, heap is a manifold subjective >term. But Peter still fails to set an independent, nonsubjective criteria for distinguishing hills from mountains or heaps from nonheaps. Peter seems to be using the same approach Ed Meese used to define pornography, "I know it when I see it." Surely language, even natlangs, can accomplish more than that! >> These and the engineering successes of fuzzy logic suggest that >> including it in lojban is useful. > >I'm not convinced. Perhaps fuzzy logic is of some use when you don't want >to make a definite decision, but you still want to call it a definite >decision. Peter does not know what fuzzy logic is. Fuzzy logic *can* be used to make definite decisions. The inputs can be fuzzy, the output can be definite. I have a fuzzy logic rice cooker, which does indeed decide when the rice is done. Turns off at an exact point in time. Makes very tasty rice, very fast. >Or perhaps it is helpful when your information is contradictory Rather true. Often we have contradictory information. Fuzzy logic can help. >and you don't have the ability or desire to root out the logical problem, >yet you want to pretend that you have some sort of definite conclusion. Again with the implications of laziness or stupidity! Again with the accusations of pretension! :-) There is an excellent (somewhat evangelical, but nonetheless excellent) book by Bart Kosko called "Fuzzy Thinking" which Peter may find interesting. There are several journals and at least 15 books which are more technical descriptions of fuzzy logic. Peter is being critical of sloppy thinking, a position I heartily endorse. Unfortunately, Peter seems to be confusing sloppy thinking with fuzzy logic. This is quite erroneous. la stivn Steven M. Belknap, M.D. Assistant Professor of Clinical Pharmacology and Medicine University of Illinois College of Medicine at Peoria email: sbelknap@uic.edu Voice: 309/671-3403 Fax: 309/671-8413