Message-Id: <m0tAjVT-0000ZRC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Wed, 1 Nov 1995 15:02:30 EST
Reply-To:     jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Almost & barely
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 3233
Lines: 92

la kris cusku di'e

> How about things like:
>
>   mi pu milxe pencu ta
>   mi pu bradanre pencu ta
>   mi pu jibni nalpencu ta

{bradanre} (or {camdanre}) is too specific to {pencu}, I was looking
for a more general solution to "it almost happened" and "it barely
happened".

I feel that {milxe} is still too strong for "barely". Maybe {ruble}
or {bletce} would work.

I hadn't thought of {jibni} for "almost". I think it's good because its
definition seems to be very general, not only for spatial proximity.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to add the word "almost" to the definition
of {jibni}, so that it is easier to find: "x1 is almost like x2 in
property x3".

> BTW "Almost" could have a range of meanings -- it could be that you were
> physically near, or it could mean that circumstances were almost such that
> you'd have to touch it -- but in fact you came nowhere near it.  I almost
> got touch the Blarney stone, but my trip to Ireland was cancelled.

Yes, I was talking about the general meaning: "This is almost what I wanted",
"You are almost as old as me", "The street is almost covered by snow", etc.
I guess {jibni} works:

        ti jibni le se djica be mi
        This is close to what I want.

        do jibni dunli mi le ka nanca
        You are close to equal to me in years.

        le klaji cu jibni se gacri lo snime
        The street is close to be covered by snow.

Maybe {jbitce}, for "very near", would be even better.

As for "barely", for example: "This is barely enough", "You are barely
younger than me", "I can barely stand this noise", etc.

        ti bletce banzu
        This very-weakly suffices.

        do bletce citmau mi
        You very-weakly are younger than mi.

        mi bletce kakne renvi le vi savru
        I very-weakly can stand this noise.

Would that work? I'm never sure exactly what {ruble} is supposed to mean.


i la stivn cusku di'e

> I believe these are
> endpoint instances of fuzziness. What would be nice would be something
> like:
>
> mi pu <fuzzily 1 on a 0 to 6 scale> pencu ta
>
> where the granularity of the fuzzy scale could be optionally speaker
 specified.

That would work for "barely" but not for "almost". In the case of "almost",
I definitely did not touch it, but was close to doing it (not necessarily
close to the object).

> I think something like this is necessary, because English speakers often use
> these sort of constructs. (Its good a good beat and you can dance to it,
> I'd give it a 7 on a ten point scale)

mi merli le ka ta xamgu kei li ze li pa lo'o bi'i li pano

I'm still not convinced that using numbers for this sort of thing is a good
idea. The scale is of course totally arbitrary, so the apparent exactness
of "7 out of 10" is illusory, since most people would disagree how good
that is. On the other hand, words like "mildly", "moderately", etc. are
equally as vague, but they don't have the false facade of exact numbers.


> I realize that it is possible to construct such statements in lojban, but a
> more compact notation seems reasonable.

I doubt that one could be devised within the current language.
Numbers seem to require much more terminators than other things,
so much compactness would not be easy.

Jorge