Message-Id: <199511241653.LAA29775@locke.ccil.org>
Date:         Fri, 24 Nov 1995 07:21:45 -0800
Reply-To: MarkLVines@EWORLD.COM
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: "Mark L. Vines" <MarkLVines@EWORLD.COM>
Subject:      translation problems
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: OR

reference:  serving the needs of lojban learners

la lojbab cusku di'e
> The 4th category of traffic I would call "translation problems"  The
> Broken Phone game and mark Vines song lyrics are both exercises in
> translation.
> Translation could be a good way to learn the language EXCEPT That,
> especially for beginners, you quickly get involved in some kind of a
> semantics trap.

Are you saying that translation problems are inappropriate for this
mailing list?

Are you saying that beginners do not benefit when "semantics traps" are
discussed?

> The ones who get confidence early, like Mark Vines, alas are also by the
> same nature that allows them to overcome the intimidating atmosrphere, a
> little brash and assertive in a way that jars on those of use who have
> been around lonmg enough to be taught humility by this language which has
> grown more complex and rich than even its makers can comrehend.

I've already apologized for being brash & assertive (which, I admit, is a
fair description of my performances here).  My problem is, I still want
to learn the language.

I downloaded the Web pages in August; they must be inaccurate, since I'm
occasionally criticized for using words or repeating information found
therein, such as there being 16 Lojbanic diphthongs.*  I submitted my
Mini-Lesson, etc., in early September, but I've still received no
response or correction to that.  Then I began posting to the list in
Lojban -- la and, la xorxes & la mark quite helpfully responded -- but I
got in over my head & had to retreat to English.  Meanwhile, the design
aspects were receiving much discussion on the list.  I chimed in, you'll
recall, with an ill-advised _defense_ of the rafsi morphology, which I
then had to retract.  You & I locked horns over my retraction, & my
subsequent (& equally ill-advised) reform proposal.  I surrendered, but
la goran taxed my proposal for its prose anyway, arguing that my desire
to say "flyswatter" succintly in Lojban must be malglico because he can't
remember what flyswatters are called in Croatian (note:  that's just an
absurdist parody of la goran's argument -- I hope!).  Okay, I thought
then, I'll drop the design issues & turn to something more pedagogically
useful, like a translation exercise.  Which I then posted.  But now you
seem to be saying that translation exercises are bad because they might
frighten off beginners....

I don't know what kind of interaction you want to have with beginners
like me.  Every approach I've tried has failed.  I've taken initiative
after initiative here, but now I'm fresh out.  You're willing to teach me
humility.  Who is willing to teach me la lojban?

co'o mi'e mark,l


* Here's what the Web documents said about diphthongs, verbatim:

> The following are Lojban diphthongs. They are best pronounced as the
> Spanish or Italian diphthongs of the same spelling, and
> always are a single syllable.
>
>     ai    /ay/   as in "pie"         ei     /ey/  as in "pay"
>     oi    /oy/   as in "boy"         au     /aw/  as in "cow"
>
>     ua    /wa/   as in "suave"       ue     /we/  as in "wet"
>     ui    /wi/   as in "we"          uo     /wo/  as in "woe"
>     uu    /wu/   as in the Chinese          but taking care not to
>                  name "Wu"                  glide into triphthong /wow/
>     ia    /ya/   as in "yard"        ie     /ye/  as in "yes"
>     ii    /yi/   as in "ye"          io     /yo/  as in "yodel"
>     iu    /yu/   as in "unicorn"            with a clipped "o" or in
>                  or "few"                   "Yoda" of Star Wars fame.
>
>     iy    /yuh/  as in "million"     uy     /wuh/ as in "was"

Sorry, but when I count these diphthongs I still get 16.  How many do you
get?  Please enumerate.