Message-Id: <199511151021.FAA19453@locke.ccil.org>
Date:         Wed, 15 Nov 1995 11:10:58 MET
Reply-To: Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Subject:      Some comments to mark,l
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: OR

> No one besides us wacky Americans would ever need succinct compounds for
> math test (cmaci, mathematics, no short rafsi),

English does not need a compound and does just fine. Croatian, my native
language, requires the phrase "ispit iz matematike" (8 syllables, gets
one more in declension), which a student of linguistics like me doesn't
use with any significant frequency between graduating high school and
asking a child of his own about his grades.

> flyswatter (sfani, fly,
> no short rafsi),

Although considering myself to be rather proficient in English, and
recalling a multitude of books I have read, I don't think I have seen
this word more than three times, if at all. I asked several members of
my family how is it called in Croatian, and none could answer me, and I
don't even think we have the word for it, though we have it at home. We
just never speak about it.

> hour-long (cacra, hour, no short rafsi),

Croatian uses the adjective "jednosatni" (4 syllables), which translates
directly to lojban as {pavcacra} (3), or, using the x2 default, just
{cacra} (2). I am satisfied.

> tin can (tinci, tin, no short
> rafsi; lante, can, no short rafsi),

Is "tin can" an idiom in English, or is it really important to impart to
your listeners that the can in question is made from tin? Most of them
are, anyway, so it is not much of an information. I have never yet been
in a situation where I would have to explicate the material of a can, and
if I ever am I would gladly use tanru.

> high tide (ctaru, tide, no short
> rafsi)

Again, why bother with lujvo? English doesn't have one word, and English
has the biggest vocabulary in the world, I think, or at least very close
to that. Why in the world would you want one word for expressing high tide?
By the way, high tide is not something I would use ctaru for at all:
{lo xamsi sefta cu galtu}. ctaru describes the process of rising and
falling of the level of the water, and I am unable to see how to get to
the individual parts of that process using that word.

> car seat (karce, car, no short rafsi)

Here you might have a point, if you insist on having lujvo. tanru works
good for me here.

> salt pan (silna, salt, no
> short rafsi),

That I don't even know what it means is a rather good assessment of the
frequency of usage. I know that this sounds egocentrical, but I wouldn't
be boasting to say that I read more English books than most
English-speaking folk. I have never encountred 'salt pan'. Could you,
please, tell me what it is?

> cardiopulmonary (risna, heart, no short rafsi; fepri, lung,
> no short rafsi)

"cardiopulmonary" (6); {risna ja fepri} (broda) (5). I am satisfied.

> flagpole (lanci, flag, no short rafsi)....

Another word I can't find Croatian equivalent for. How often do you use
it? Could you give me a context for example?

> Such things
> will always be so rare, so amazingly culture-specific that we can either
> use long words to describe them, or else not describe them at all!

See above.

> I opine therefore that facial features, including eyebrows, merit
> economical expression -- if not monosyllabic morphemes then, at worst,
> two-syllable compounds.  At three syllables, kalmebri (eyebrow) is
> excessively & uncomfortably long, especially if it's to be part of a
> larger whole, such as kalmebri pinsi (eyebrow pencil), kalmebri lafti
> (eyebrow raising) or kalmebri kerfa (eyebrow hair).

Two points here. First, "eyebrow" is an English idiomatic word, and does
*not* translate to {kalmebri}. If I am correct as to what eyebrow is,
then the closest I can see is {mebykre}, which is two syllables long,
same as English word and one syllable less than Croatian word, "obrva"
(3). I can't see any difference between "eyebrow" and "eyebrow hair"
except that the former is collective term for all hair above the eyes
and the latter can be either singular or plural, and the distinction is
irrelevant in lojban. "Eyebrow pencil" (4) translates then to {mebykre
pinsi} (4) which is in Croatian "olovka za obrve" (7). Now, I don't know
exactly what you mean by "eyebrow raising", but it would come out as {nu
mebykre galgau} (as a facial expression) or {nu mebri xulgau} (as a
surgical operation).

> co'o mi'e mark,l

co'o mi'e. goran.

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