Message-Id: <199511241906.OAA03516@locke.ccil.org>
Date:         Fri, 24 Nov 1995 13:56:24 -0500
Reply-To: Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: self-descriptions?
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: OR

> >> ji'a I don't understand the second, either. Why sexipa? Isn't that the
> >> same as {mi nundraci kelci}?
> >
> >I thought {se xi pa} gives the x6 place. x6 of {nundraci} is the actor.
>
> Not sure, but in nundraci doesn't the x1 of draci, the actor, get moved to
> x2, x2 to x3, etc. and x5 to x6?  Or does the x1 jump immediately to x6?

That's right, the place structure of {nunbroda} is: n1 b1 b2 b3 b4 b5

The other question is whether {sexipa} gives you the x6 or the x1.

> >This shows how limited our command of the language still is.
>
> Another possibility: it shows that Lojban is capable of more obfuscation
> than some other languages.  Perhaps a comparable sentence in Latin could
> have been made that difficult even for a fluent Latinist (since Latin like
> Lojban lets you thoroughly scramble word order)

Lojban is even worse than Latin in that respect. In Latin, (I don't really
know any Latin, bit I suppose that) the cases at least give you some idea
of what to expect, you can start forming some relation among the arguments
from the start. With fi-fa-fus you can't do anything until you know the
selbri, and And had it as the very last word.

Jorge