Message-Id: <199511252338.SAA21582@locke.ccil.org>
Date:         Sun, 26 Nov 1995 00:23:49 MET
Reply-To: Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Subject:      Re: serving the needs of Lojban learners
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: OR

> Finally there is straight Lojban text.  Goran of course is the  master of
 this,
> using the langauge every moment that he can, it seems, and I heartily approve.

.i ki'e do .i mi se pluka ke ciblu se flira .i ku'i do dukse zanta'a mi
.i lei mi termri puza rirci le ka se benji

> When he writes, Jorge and others often respond, and we have at times had
 months-
> long"conversations on the list.  Of course, the moment we get screenfulls of
> Lojban, the average beginner is overwhelmed and doesn't try to read the text.

Where they make a big mistake pe'i. Somebody (xoses and kris, xunai)
said something about learning in isolation. ba'e I know. I saw lojban
mentioned somewhere, got interested, acquired FyTyPy judri, mgot
everything from there, read the brochure, lojex and refgrammar as it was
then, and exchanged a few termri with lojbab. He said he didn't have
much time to discuss my lojban, but that there was a mailing list where
people are there for just that reason... So I posted. After a month or
two I said to myself: doesn't matter how dumb people will think I am,
from now on for a month I'll write in lojban only, and only in PS will I
allow myself a few comments and questions I am sure noone would
understand if I tried squeezing them in my frighteningly small knowledge
of grammar and vocabulary. People corrected, and my knowledge grew.
Unfortunately, my free time behaved in what seems like an inverse
proportion, so you find me writing less and less lojban text... For
which I apologise.

One major benefit to my knowledge was reading people's lojban. There is
nothing better than example to teach one a language. So, doesn't matter
how advanced the lojban is or how much of it there is. Well, it does, but
not the way people usually think: the more you don't know the more you
can learn if you ask about it.

> Poeple have proposed a newsgroup, or splitting into multiple lists.  A
> newsgroup would allow a little better control over what you read, and would
> not fill you mailboxes with 30 messages a day.  But it would also increase
> spammage, and lead to some amount of inconcistent particpation - I almost
> never respnd in real time to a newsgroup posting, unlike my email.

I agree. I, too, never read Usenet with any regularity, and it would be
extremely inconvenient for me. Multiple lists are also not an answer, as
that would only increase the frequency for those who want to read everything,
and it would soon become quite unbearable. I am for using Subject header
markers, like I have seen on Klingon list bac when I was subscribed, and
like you can see on the alt.fan.pratchett newsgroup. I suggest that every
post should have a subject classifier, something like this (no need to
say that classes and classifiers are open to discussion and addition)

JBO:  or  T:  lojban text
GEN:  or  G:  grammar discussion
PLI:  or  U:  usage discussion
LOJ:  or  L:  logic discussion
CLI:  or  B:  beginner discussion
RET:  or  Q:  question to the experienced (not restricted to beginners)
LIN:  or  W:  whispers
CPE:  or  R:  request for translation
SNU:  or  C:  chat (bau la lojban. ju'o)
VRC:  or  D:  general discussion (anything that won't fit) (why doesn't
                vrici have a nice 3 zei lerfu rafsi .oi)
TRO:  or  A:  list administration and miscellanea

Also, with this, anything not having one of these and not saying
something clearly indicating newbiehood is a spam li'a message, and
you can delete it from your mbox with clear conscience.

> We could also have a LOjban text only list, and I think the community is
> almost ready for that, where all postings would be in Lojban or by agreement
> limited to single-followups with translation or questions, byut the
> questions would be moved over to Lojban List.  This would work, I think, if
> we had the listserver, but we would need Goran and a cou0ple of otherd to
> commit to supporting it with traffic (management would probably be easy).
> But we wouldstill need a host, and I am not sure this would meet the needs
> of beginners.

Look above. Most lojban text would carry "JBO:", "LIN:", "Re: CPE:" or
"SNU:" tag in its subject, and would be easy to pick out (unless someone
else tries the gliban abstinency, too...)

As for me carrying the lojban conversation, I don't know... I mean, I
feel more than little foolish describing you how did I enjoy my lessons
today and what did I have for lunch. I am not very proficient in chatting,
and often need an externally imposed subject to talk about. As lojbab said,
I think that we know too little of each other other than love for lojban to
chat very effectively. The point is: if you want me to talk, talk to me.

> This wouls be to have a couple of signup sheets on the Lojban WEb page
> where people could sign up for

.ie selnei
You can put me on the list, if you want...

Except, don't do this on the Web exclusively. I have very slow link, and
looking up anything on WWW is very tedious. I wouldn't have the patience
to do that regularly, and besides I am usually on-line through modem.
Just today at 3 a.m. I went to an .uk URL and waited some 10-15 mins for
8K of text. Do it on the list and then, if you want to, archive it on
the Web.

co'o mi'e. goran. noi na cnino segi'u se pinka

--
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