Message-Id: <m0tCedp-0000ZTC@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Tue, 7 Nov 1995 01:34:36 MET
Reply-To:     Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Sender:       Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From:         Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Subject:      Re: Phonology Paper Released
To:           Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 2139
Lines: 48

I haven't managed to dl it yet, but...

> > > by, cy, etc are pro-sumti, not the names of the letters of the alphabet.
> >
> > Sort of.  They are names of letters which have a grammatical use as
 pro-sumti.
> > They are also used as numerical variables and in other ways.
>
> Are they ever used as names? This could cause confusion, how can you
> tell whether you are talking about the letter or using it as a pronoun?

Use me'o to refer to letters themselves. Read lerfu paper. E.g.

.abu cu sumti basti .i ku'i me'o .abu cu lerfu

> > > > vice versa, without adding an adjacent vowel.
> > >
> > > I don't understand this comment. Does it mean that for example {brlgan.}
> > > is not a legal Lojban name? It doesn't seem more difficult than many other
> > > ugly clusters.
> >
> > It is legal, but its pronunciation is dubious:  is "l" or "r" the syllabic
> > consonant?
>
> I would say "l", because "br" is a legal initial and "lg" is not, but in any
> case, if the name is legal then I don't understand the comment. If you add
> an adjacent vowel the consonant will not function as a vowel, so how does
> that help?

I don't know about that... My intuition would say "r". That word has to
divide into {brl} and {gan} syllables (if only one of the liquids is
syllabic, that is). I don't know what the phoneticians might say about
this (I can probably ask my phonetics professor), but it seems to me
that "r" has greater sonority than "l", so "r" takes the vowel function
if they're together. Try this: compare {brl} with {bri} and {bil} and
see which is closer of the two. I say the latter. In the reverse and
harder to pronounce situation, {blr}, I hear "bl" as a consonant cluster
and "r" again as a syllabic sound. I find it closer to {bli} than to
{bir}. Hence I conclude that when "l" and "r" are together, "r" carries
the syllable.

co'o mi'e. goran.

--
GAT/CS/O d?@ H s:-@ !g p1(2)@ !au(0?) a- w+(+++) (!)v-@(+) C++(++++)
UU/H(+) P++>++++ L(>+) !3 E>++ N+ K(+) W--(---) M-- !V(--) -po+ Y(+)
t+@(+++) !5 !j R+@ G-@(J++) tv+(++) b++@ D++ B? e+* u@ h!$ f?(+) r--
!n(+@) y+. GeekCode v2.1, modifications left to reader to puzzle out