From LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sat Mar 6 22:45:22 2010 Reply-To: Chris Bogart Sender: Lojban list Date: Mon Dec 11 18:05:11 1995 From: Chris Bogart Subject: Re: lojban dialectology X-To: lojban@cuvmb.bitnet To: John Cowan Status: OR X-From-Space-Date: Mon Dec 11 18:05:11 1995 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Message-ID: And: >We ought to keep track of the various good ideas, [...] >we can then >evolve a dialect incorporating all these improvements. Or in fact we >could start already, trying out these dialectal variants in usage. > >"Better lojban be better than it be finished" - let that be a motto. >Or "Lojban finished is Lojban finished". A counterproposal: I am interested in tinkering with the language, but I also really like the idea of a baseline, imperfect though it will be, and a community of speakers that agree to learn the baseline and try to stick with it. It is/will be a fun experiment. But it's kind of incompatible with the tinkering we conlangers like to do. The baseline is stifling some creative urges, and the creative urges are constantly pushing back the baseline. Let's create a new language NOT called Lojban (Ninjbo?), that IS allowed to evolve quite freely, with no looming threat of baseline to choke it off. We'd start it off Dec 11 1996 defined as identical to Lojban, and let it change in about the same manner as Lojban changes, but with something other than LLG (e.g. a vote, or something) as the final arbiter of what gets changed. The purpose would be: - A way of discussing problems and recording reform proposals generated by the main project - Something for Lojbanists to talk about in Lojban - A way to channel Lojbanists' tinkering urges - Keeps non-crucial issues out of Lojbab's hair - New people can learn a standard language without having to guess at lots of dialects -- they start with the standard and can mess with different dialects and high level discussions when they're ready - To allow more significant reforms than the current looming-baseline-threat allows for This is NOT a proposal for a schism. Maybe we could have an informal rule that encourages people to post some text in standard lojban proportional to the amount of tinkering with ninjbo so we don't end up siphoning people off the main project. Eventually it would be nice if the discussion itself all took place in stardard lojban (not in ninjbo!) Eventually ninjbo might become really stable and interesting and amazing, and maybe people will want to jump ship and leave Lojban behind. But if that doesn't happen we won't have killed Lojban with perfectionism. >Only with disdain shall guhek be used by me. If we split our efforts like this, would you be satisfied with hacking guheks out of ninjbo, and accepting the imperfections of Lojban? ____ Chris Bogart \ / http://www.quetzal.com Boulder, CO \/ cbogart@quetzal.com "Life is strange. Some people get rich, others eat shit and die. Maybe a fat man will feel his heart burst and call it beautiful." - Hunter S Thompson