From LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sat Mar 6 22:45:52 2010 Reply-To: ucleaar Sender: Lojban list Date: Fri Dec 8 20:37:20 1995 From: ucleaar Subject: TECH: masses & discussers X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan Status: OR X-From-Space-Date: Fri Dec 8 20:37:20 1995 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Message-ID: ar> > > 11. "The place structure of "casnu" is: the mass x1 discusses/talks ar> > > about x2 so the x1 place must be occupied by a mass". This seems ar> > > nonsensical, unless the x1 of casnu is merely arbitrarily required ar> > > to be a mass. So far as I can tell, only gunma's x1 needs to be a ae> > > mass. jl> > {casnu} is supposed to mean something like "x1 interchange opinions jl> > about x2". It doesn't make much sense to have a single person jl> > casnuing, unless they are talking to themselves. The restriction to jl> > being a mass is nothing but that, I think. jc> At one point it was intended to make the x1 of "casnu" a set, but jc> someone (Nora?) pointed out that people may participate in a discussion jc> without actually talking, so that a mass is a good model. Also, a jc> discussion may continue with various people arriving or leaving without jc> losing its identity. The main reason for not using an individual is jc> that "le prenu cu casnu" would mean that >each< of them is discussing: jc> begging the question "With whom?" By the sounds of things, the x1 of casnu is a group/team/collectivity, and not a mass. As we've already had numerous nuncasnu about the nature of masses, none of which have in the long term persuaded me that so-called masses in Lojban are clearly or consistently understood (issues of individuation, instantiation and countability, appear to be confused with issues of collectivity and distributivity; among various standard examples, e.g. beer-drinking chicagoans, piano carriers, coloured balls, I see no common factors), rather than starting another thread, I would ask to be directed to the most pertient discussions in the refgrammar papers. So far I have found nothing that makes lojban masses make sense. --- And