From LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sat Mar 6 22:46:26 2010 Reply-To: Jorge Llambias Sender: Lojban list Date: Fri Dec 22 14:13:24 1995 From: Jorge Llambias Subject: Re: misc responses to Jorge from last month, esp. SEI X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu, jorge@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu To: John Cowan Status: OR X-From-Space-Date: Fri Dec 22 14:13:24 1995 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Message-ID: <4Sf3oB80-jG.A.7JG.Cv0kLB@chain.digitalkingdom.org> > >It is also not true that something is blue to all observers and under all > >conditions. It is also not true that someone is a person to all > >observers and under all conditions. I doubt that you can find many > >gismu that can hold for all observers and under all conditions. > Yes, but the problem is specifically noted to be culturally biased in the > case of colors, and we did not want to try to adjudicate the definition of > blanu - this having been excessively debated to no avail. I don't understand what you mean by adjudicate the definition of blanu. I'm very happy with its definition. My problem is with gismu that have "to observer" and "under conditions" places. They can be added to almost any gismu, so selecting some to have it is totally arbitrary and culturally biased. > >> 2. What do you put in x2 for x1 = ultraviolet light, > >{noda}. As far as I know ultraviolet light is invisible, so it has no > >colour. Or is skari something different from colour? > UV is invisible, but is a color per se. Some animals see it. Likewise > infrared, which CAN be seen with the proper viewing devices. Then they would be {blanu bancu} and {xunre bancu}, I suppose. How does the current {skari} place structure help? > >Well, you didn't say what is the difference, if any, between > >{ta skari le ka blanu} and {ta ckaji le ka blanu}. Can you give > >an example where the current place structure of skari is useful? > Saying it is characterized by blueness is not saying that it IS the color > blue. This is the old tanru issue of "blue house" incarnate. There is no tanru here. {ta ckaji le ka [ke'a] blanu} means that {ta blanu}, doesn't it? > >> BTW, try for x2 putting in hue/brightness/saturation as another > >> alternative. > >Could you give examples? I can't make any sense of it. > No I can't. THere are people who are into formall defining colors based on > theri positions on a color solid, defined by (I think) those 3 properties. Those people can make a technical lujvo if they wish. Gismu are not supposed to be for overtechnical concepts. > I know of the definitions of no colors , or even what the typical values > are for each coordinate scale. How you would use it, would be to put in > x2 the measurement numbers and an indication that the scales they are > measured on are hue/brightness/saturation. How this would be done > is probably convention tied to whatever lujvo/fu'ivla iscreated. But > leka broda li hue pi'e brightness pi'e saturation is what I am thinking of. You could do the same with the simpler "x1 is the colour of x2" definition. Then you put lo broda be li hue pi'e brightness pi'e saturation in the x2 place. Jorge