From LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sat Mar 6 22:45:58 2010 Reply-To: "John E. Clifford" Sender: Lojban list Date: Sun Dec 24 15:32:36 1995 From: "John E. Clifford" Subject: tech: opaque To: lojban list Status: OR X-From-Space-Date: Sun Dec 24 15:32:36 1995 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Message-ID: Cowan: What you say is right as far as it goes; however, the point is not what Ralph is disposed to assent to, but what is true. The first claim is true, and any expression synonymous with "Ortcutt" may be substituted for it; the second claim is true only if "Ortcutt" is understood to be opaque or semi-opaque ("pillar of the community" would do as a substitute, but not "man sneaking around on the beach", e.g.). pc: Although it is not impossible that he is wrong and that we can prove it, Ralph is generally a better judge of what he believes than we are and, in this case, the evidence given is that the truth is that "Ralph believes that Orcutt is no spy" is correct and "Ralph believes that Orcutt is a spy" is wrong. To be sure, "Ralph believes that the man slinking around is a spy" is also true and the referent of "the man slinking around" is indeed Orcutt, but Ralph does not believe that (indeed, has probably not even considered it), so the inference does not go through, even with both of these guys having external reference. Of course, the following is also true "Of Orcutt, Ralph believes that he is a spy," so the move from outer to inner reference does not work in opaque contexts, even though, in this case, the move from inner to outer is valid. lojbab: So it is possible you are trying to talk about sisku and not kalte pc: No, we are talking about hunting, not looking for something (really a property? how do we get so screwed up?): we intend to kill or catch or photograph or whatever is the appropriate trophy taking act. And it is that intention that drops the object down the opacity hole, allowing us to do our hunting not only unsuccessfully or without an specific target but even when there are no critters of the sort sought (indeed, even when we know there are not). Logic doesn't do a great job woith this situation nor linguistics nor (consequently? I'd like to think so) Lojban. pc>|83