From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Sun Dec 24 07:16:33 1995 Reply-To: ucleaar Date: Sun Dec 24 07:16:33 1995 Sender: Lojban list From: ucleaar Subject: `already' X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan Status: OR Message-ID: ivAn: > I vote against a specific ZAhO for `already'. It is not an aspectual > operator; it is orthogonal to the ZAhO scale ({pu'o} appears to be the > only ZAhO whose meaning is incompatible with the idea of alreadiness). They are quasi-aspectual. What we wish to express is something like * starting sooner than expected * starting later than expected * continuing longer than expected where for the last one Jorge has been using {zao}. I don't think that that is quite what superfectivity is supposed to be though. So at present I know of no decent way to render any of these three meanings. > There's a lot of linguistic work on `already' and its cousins `still' > and `finally' (I could provide references; there was a detailed study > by J van den Auwera in _Linguistics and Philosophy_ about 2 years ago), > and there's a lot of controversy, but people seem to agree that they > characterise the event or state as taking place respectively sooner, > longer and later than it might (than anticipated, than on some other > occasion etc.) (ignoring a host of derived meanings). I think we > should be able to express such things by means of attitudinals. [We mean "discursive", not "attitudinal" - attitudinals are things like "Wow!", while discursives are things like "frankly" and "unfortunately" (unless one of those is what indicators are).] (a) Which UIs? (b) UIs are the right solution iff they don't affect the truth conditions of the bridi. If {koa krici kuau koe xao broda} means "koa believes koe brodas for longer than koa would expect" or "koa believes koe brodas for longer than I would expect", or "koa believes koe brodas for longer than one would expect" then a UI is not the right thing. I.e. if koa does believe that koe brodas, but koa doesn't believe koe brodas for longer than expected, should {koa krici kuau koe xao broda} be false? If yes, then {xao} should not be in UI. If no, then {xao} should be in UI. Very tentatively, I conclude from this that they shouldn't be in UI, reasoning woolily that if {sohi} and {sou} are "subjective" but do affect truth conditions (as I *presume* they do), then {xao} & co. shd behave likewise. coo, mie And