Message-Id: <199512072242.AAA04122@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:30:51 -0500
Reply-To: Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Jorge Llambias <jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Observatives (simple)
To: Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 2245
Lines: 60

Bob Chassell:
> {ta blanu} and {blanu fa ta} are both examples of bridi with a filled
> first place.  Both utterances mean "This at which I point is blue."

I agree.

> Incidentally, Jorge said regarding this query:
>
>    I don't see any special semantic content in the "observative" form.
>
> I don't know what he meant here.  Neither of those examples are
> observatives.

The question came up because we were trying to determine the difference
in the semantics of bridi vs. bridi-tail. Lojbab brought up observatives
to explain the difference, but if {blanu fa ta} is not considered an
observative, then observatives are not relevant, because that definitely
is a bridi-tail.

Lojbab:
> >I don't see any special semantic content in the "observative" form.
> That is your problem.  It's been explained to you often enough.

I'm hard of understanding sometimes. :) But I don't really consider it
a problem. I simply understand {broda ko'a} and {ko'a se broda} as
meaning the same thing. I have no need for the concept of observative.
Hopefully that won't make me misunderstand very much those who do
use the concept.

> >At most it is a matter of emphasis, but that also exists in sentences
> >with foreterms, like {ko'a ko'e broda} vs {ko'a broda ko'e}.
>
> There is no rule that makes either of those two forms have different
> emphasis.

Right. So why should there be a rule that makes {ko'a broda} have
different emphasis from {broda fa ko'a}, or {broda ko'a} from
{ko'a se broda}.

> Indeed in Russian, x2 is generally before the verb if it is
> a pronoun and after if it is anything else.

Just as in Spanish.

> NO emphasis implied.  I have
> started to model that in my Lojban because of the intensity with which
> I have studied Russian.

That's good. I don't see any difference either, nor do I want there
to be one. I would prefer that no difference be prescribed for
"observatives" either.

In any case, this still leaves us with the question of whether there
exists a semantic difference between bridi and bridi-tail unanswered.

According to Bob Chassell, an observative is a bridi with an elided
x1. That makes {fe ko'a broda} an observative, so there would be
no direct relationship between observatives and bridi-tail.

Jorge