From LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET Sat Mar 6 22:46:12 2010 Reply-To: "Robert J. Chassell" Sender: Lojban list Date: Thu Dec 28 09:08:20 1995 From: "Robert J. Chassell" Subject: {ga'inai} error X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu, bob@rattlesnake.com To: John Cowan Status: OR X-From-Space-Date: Thu Dec 28 09:08:20 1995 X-From-Space-Address: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Message-ID: Oops! In my message regarding `already', I used {ga'inai} wrongly. I wrote as if the attitudinal were an English adverb, stated by the author of the passage, not by the person supposed to be actually speaking. I wrote: 3. "But the others already came!" said the butler meekly. ^^^^^^ lu .i .ue ku'i lei drata prenu ba'o vitke li'u Surprise, however, the mass of other people are in the aftermath of visiting. la'e di'u se cusku le zdase'u ga'inai ^^^^^^^ the last utterance was said by the house-type of servant meekly. As I wrote, it is I, the author who is speaking humbly. It actually reads: Your humble and unworthy author notes that the the last utterance was spoken by the butler. (Certainly, I ought be humble, for making this mistake! :) {ga'inai} is an attitudinal expressed by a speaker. I should have written: "But, Sir, the others left!" lu .i .ue ga'inai ku'i lei drata prenu ba'o vitke li'u ", , but the others left." la'e di'u se cusku le zdase'u the last utterance was said by the butler. In English, we are more likely to say `Your Honor' or `Sir' than say `lowly me'; or else we indicate status or rank by action or tone of voice. Alternatively, I could have written the adverb like this: .... said by the butler meekly. ^^^^^^ .... meekly said by the butler. ^^^^^^ la'e di'u se cumla cusku le zdase'u ^^^^^ the last utterance was a modest/humble type of saying by the butler. x1 is humble/modest about x2 (abstraction); x1 displays humility about x2 /:/ /=/ cumla (cul) However, as a stylistic matter, I think the expression should be part of the quotation, not an adverb --- Lojban is different from English. English lacks written attitudinals; consequently, a written sentence cannot readily express the emotions and attitudes of the speaker (of course, a great writer picks words and circumstances so you will accurately and readily infer them, but that is another matter). This means that as a practical matter, an ordinary writer of English simply tells the audience how the person being quoted is speaking. In my case, I wrote that the `butler spoke meekly'. This told you how the butler spoke. But in Lojban, an author can have the butler use written words to express his attitude. Robert J. Chassell bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu 25 Rattlesnake Mountain Road bob@rattlesnake.com Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA (413) 298-4725