Return-Path: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@vms.dc.LSOFT.COM Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id GAA20984 for ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 06:55:59 +0200 Message-Id: <199601100455.GAA20984@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi> Received: from listmail.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id C71ACCBD ; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 5:55:58 +0100 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:24:57 GMT Reply-To: Don Wiggins Sender: Lojban list From: Don Wiggins Subject: le'ala'ezo LIN mo'u pamoi la'elu spofu fonxa To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 10860 Lines: 264 coi do Here it is at last the first round of Broken Phone. Overall it was very good, but it did go a bit askew. Thanks to everyone for playing, there is currently two other rounds on-going. Here is my summary. All comments are welcome. The original text is: "... Our men were lying hidden, waiting patiently. Some were very near the camp lines in the ravine, but the whites did not see a man of all our men. I do not think they would have discovered our ambuscade..." These are the words of Big Eagle of the Santee Sioux from the book "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown. 1. Don dwiggins@bfsec.bt.co.uk cu'u li'osa'a .i puki leimi'a nanmu vo'a vreta mipri .ibo tolsteba denpa .i pisu'o ri mutce jibni le jimte be le ginka vi le fenra .iku'i lei malylabypre na viska pa nanmu pe piro leimi'a nanmu .ipe'i ra na ba facki lemi'a pajygunta .i li'osa'a 2. Paulo barreto%velahf@eccsa.tr.unisys.com "[...] Nossos homens tinham se escondido para repousar -- uma pausa gratificante. Pelo menos alguns deles estavam muito perto do limite do acampamento, junto `a ravina. Todavia os malditos brancos nao viram sequer um homem dentre todos os nossos homens. Em minha opiniao, eles nao descobriram nosso ataque-surpresa. [...]" 3. Jorge jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU lu li'o i lei mi'a nanmu ri pu mipri tezu'e le nu surla i pluka nundenpa i su'oso'o ra mutce jibni le jimte be le ginka ne'a le fenra i za'oku lei mabla labypre cu zgana no nanmu pe piro lei mi'a nanmu i pe'i ra na ba facki fi le mi'a spaji nungunta i li'o li'u 4. And ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk "... And our manry hid for the relaxation. There was a pleasant hiatus. A good many of them were close to the edge of the encampment, next to the fissure. Still the damn honky spied no men of all our manry. They, I believe, won't find anything out about our surprise attack..." 7. Ivan IAD@BGEARN.BITNET | *5. Dylan dpt@MATH.BERKELEY.EDU | ke'unai lemi'a dabgri co'a se zgamra | li'o .ije le mi'a naugri cu puki tezu'e lenu surla .i.oinai ze'e cutcau | sezmipri mu'i lenu surla .i pluka nu .i so'ibe'unai lu'ale go'e cu jibni le | denpa .i so'i ko'a cu jibni le korbi korbi be le ginka gi'esu'anai lamji le | be le ginka bei le fenra .i le fenra .ija'enaibo le mabla labypre | malyxla cu ca'o viska sanji no nanmu .iunaicai mo'u dikfa'irvi'a no cmima | pe ro mi'a naugri .i.ia ko'a ba facki be lemi'a girzu .ipe'i pu'o facki noda | noda le mi'a mipri nungunta li'o lemi'a spaji nu gunta | * Dylan's translation arrived late, I include for completeness. 8. Iain I.Alexander@bra0125.wins.icl.co.uk And now our unit is starting to take cover in order to relax. Ah, it's always a pleasure to get your shoes off. Too many of them are near the edge of the camp, and in particular next to the ravine. But the damned whitey patrols don't discover any member of our unit. I think they're going to find out nothing about our surprise attack. 9. Goran topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR .i le mi'a bilgri co'a se badgai mu'i lenu surla .i .o'u lenu co'u se cutci cu roroi pluka .i du'e ko'a jibni le ginka korbi .e lo fenra ku sa'e .i ku'i loi malblabi zgakujli'u facki no cmima be lemi'o bilgri .i pe'i ko'a facki noda lenu mi'o pajgunta kei pu ri 10. Chris cbogart@netcom.com Our unit took cover so we could rest. Ahh, it felt good to take our shoes off. Too many of them were near the edge of the camp, and at the actual Chasm. But the damn white tour-guide explorers were not part of our unit. I don't think they realized you and I ambushed them. > cu'u Open quotation with elliptical speaker. This is not right, it should be "cu'uku tu'e li'o tu'u" to have the correct scope. > li'osa'a Editorial deletion of text. The preceding sentences was too difficult for me :-) The qoutation marks and ellipsis were lost somewhere in the middle. > .i puki Mark the following text as past tense. Strangely enough, the past tense was transformed into "co'a" among other things in middle, but magically re-appeared at the very end again. > leimi'a nanmu The mass of (my and other's, but not your) men. The use of "manry" was a kicker which ultimately settled on being "unit" which is fairly close. > vo'a vreta mipri Hide themselves by lying down. The definition of "vreta" is treacherous. Personally, I don't think that the glosses of rest and repose are appropriate. Something like 'x1 lies down on surface x2, x1 is supine' and have "survre" as 'x1 rests/reposes on surface x2' for the relaxation sense. As you will see, this threw the meaning of the translation right off from the very start. > .ibo This sentence is closely related to the previous sentence. > tolsteba denpa Polar opposite of frustated waiting. Patient as 'not frustated' didn't really work. It went "uma pause gratificante"->"pleasant hiatus"->"shoes off" where the shoes appeared from, I don't know. > .i pisu'o ri Some of them. This went "good many"->"so'ibe'unai"->"too many". > mutce jibni le jimte be le ginka vi le fenra Were very near the limit of the camp near the ravine. The camp lines oscillated between "jimte" and "korbi" two valsi which seem to have very close semantics. The relationship between the camp lines and the ravine covered the fullest range possible "vi"->"ne'a"->gi'esu'anai"->".e". > .iku'i lei malylabypre na viska pa nanmu pe piro leimi'a nanmu But the bad-white-people, it is false that, they see one man of all of our men. A missing "shoe" caused the "damned whitey patrols" to become "damn white-guide explorers"(?) and the "pe piro" to be promoted to the relation of the predicate as "part of". > .ipe'i I think that. This survived intact. > ra na ba facki They will not discover. I am not happy with this at all. The conditional "would" is very difficult to render. It implies that the ambush was, in fact, discovered. The lojban does not cover this aspect. > lemi'a pajygunta Our surprise-attack. I disappointed that no-one translated this back as ambuscade ;-) > .i li'osa'a Editorial deletion. More difficult sentences. And for those who want to know what's going on: | | le poi selcme lu spofu fonxa li'u ku'o selkei | | The following description is the game that I will call 'Broken Phone'. This | will distinguish it from 'Chinese Whispers' which works on the same | principle but is the English-only. This game allows intermediate languages | that are not English. | | The initiator of the game selects a passage in English, a list of players | and the intermediate languages. The initiator translates the passage into | lojban and sends it, along with the list of players and the languages, to the | person next on the list. All subsequent players translate the passage into | the specified language and pass it along to the next player. When the | last player completes their translation we compare the outcome with the | original. | | When one receives the text: translate the passage, send to the next person on | the list, cc it to the initiator. The initiator will give a summary at the | end. | | And suggests allowing oneself about a week to do the translation. | Unfortunately, this game is more fragile than Chinese Whispers in that if one | person is unable to manage a translation the chain will be broken, but that | is the price to be paid for being on the leading edge. | | I feel that having players translate into their native language, especially | if they are only learning lojban, will be much easier than attempting a | translation to English. Hence, I will leave out Klingon for the time being, | unless it is explicitly wanted (I think that going through Klingon is likely | to have some very strange effects). The task of translating non-native | language into lojban is not as taxing as the reverse process. | | The players are: | | Name Address Native Fluent Other | ---- ------- ------ ------ ----- | And ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk English Italian | Goran topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR Croatian English | Don dwiggins@bfsec.bt.co.uk English Spanish | Chris cbogart@netcom.com English Spanish | Iain I.Alexander@bra0125.wins.icl.co.uk English | Jorge jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU Spanish English French | Esperanto | Dylan dpt@MATH.BERKELEY.EDU English French | Ivan IAD@BGEARN.BITNET Bulgarian English German | Russian Hungarian French | Spanish | Croatian | Cyril slobin@FEAST.FE.MSK.RU Russian English German | Esperanto | Paulo pbarreto@unisys.com.br Portuguese English German | Spanish Italian | Esperanto French | Nick nsn@speech.language.unimelb.edu.au English Greek French | Esperanto German | Klingon Latin | | Everyone is assumed to be proficient in lojban. One's native language is the | most desirable target for translation, followed by the fluent languages. The | other languages are appropriate only as the source of translation into lojban. | | An example orders are: | | 1. Don dwiggins@bfsec.bt.co.uk | | lojban | 2. Paulo pbarreto@unisys.com.br | | Portuguese | 3. Jorge jorge@PHYAST.PITT.EDU | | lojban | 4. And ucleaar@ucl.ac.uk | | English | 5. Dylan dpt@MATH.BERKELEY.EDU | | lojban | 6. Cyril slobin@FEAST.FE.MSK.RU | | Russian | 7. Ivan IAD@BGEARN.BITNET | | lojban | 8. Iain I.Alexander@bra0125.wins.icl.co.uk | | English | 9. Goran topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR | | lojban | 10. Chris cbogart@netcom.com | | English | 11. Nick nsn@speech.language.unimelb.edu.au | | lojban | V | | If there is anyone who is interested in joining the chain, just send me your | details (name; email address; native, fluent and other languages) and I will | re-post this information to the list at regular intervals. | | .i co'o | | Don Wiggins dwiggins@bfsec.bt.co.uk |