From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Wed Jan 17 08:23:12 1996 Received: from vms.dc.lsoft.com (vms.dc.lsoft.com [205.186.43.2]) by locke.ccil.org (8.6.9/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA00126 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:23:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199601171323.IAA00126@locke.ccil.org> Received: from PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (205.186.43.4) by vms.dc.lsoft.com (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id 9B76844C ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 7:55:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 12:35:36 MET Reply-To: Goran Topic Sender: Lojban list From: Goran Topic Subject: Re: PLI: se pixra (PU: TECH: opacity continued) X-To: Lojban Listserv To: John Cowan Status: OR X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 1895 > Goran: > > I am happy with {ti pixra le/lo/lo/lo'e/le'e gerku}, depending on what > > you want. > > That's right, but (ignoring nonveridicality) all claim or at least > imply that you could go out into the world (possibly equipped with > time machine) and find the dog that is depicted. That's true of le/lo, but not of lo'e/le'e, IMHO... I take {ti pixra lo'e gerku} to mean "This is a picture of some generic dog." For {lo gerku}, the streak of white fur above the right eye is significant. It is a specific dog. Some dog, I might not know which one, but I am sure it exists somewhere. Now, with {lo'e gerku} the only thing that matters to me is it's basic dogness. {lo pixra lo'e gerku} is a picture of something noi ckaji dogness. But it is just a concept, and not your actual I-can-pet-it-and-feed-it-and-take-it-home type of a dog. xunai? > > Of course, you can't use lo'e on photos, just paintings. > > I don't see that. 'Cause a photo always shows an actual I-can-pet-it-and-feed-it-and-take- it-home type of a dog. As far as I understand your discussions (which is not very much, I must admit), at least some of you take {mi zgana lo'e cipni} to mean "I watch birds" or "I am a bird-watcher", but not "I am watching a bird", or even "I noticed a typical bird". The latter is {mi zgana lo fadni cipni}, right? You just don't use {lo'e} for the actual instances, only for the concept. "I am a noticer of Miss Bird, whenever She chooses to show Herself to me." Same logic. You don't use lo'e if you refer to some specific instance of Mr. Dog. co'o mi'e. goran. -- GAT/CS/O d?@ H s:-@ !g p1(2)@ !au(0?) a- w+(+++) (!)v-@(+) C++(++++) UU/H(+) P++>++++ L(>+) !3 E>++ N+ K(+) W--(---) M-- !V(--) -po+ Y(+) t+@(+++) !5 !j R+@ G-@(J++) tv+(++) b++@ D++ B? e+* u@ h!$ f?(+) r-- !n(+@) y+. GeekCode v2.1, modifications left to reader to puzzle out