From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Sat Jan 6 18:27:49 1996 Received: from home.dc.lsoft.com (home.dc.lsoft.com [205.186.43.9]) by locke.ccil.org (8.6.9/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA18727 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:27:45 -0500 Message-Id: <199601062327.SAA18727@locke.ccil.org> Received: from PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (205.186.43.4) by home.dc.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.0a) with SMTP id 59512AE0 ; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:03:57 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 23:56:17 MET Reply-To: Goran Topic Sender: Lojban list From: Goran Topic Subject: Re: misc respsonses to And from last month X-To: Lojban Listserv To: John Cowan Status: OR X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2510 > > Because people memorize the places in a certain order rather than as > > having certain place numbers, and you are intentionally marking them by > > their place numbers. This forces the listener to tag the sumti by place > > number and overtly rearrange them in his head for interpretation per the > > selbri place structure. > > If true, then this would indeed be a reason why fi-fa-fu is hard. > But if true, it means Lojban is syntactically unlike natlangs, which > indeed it may be. .i la'ede'u jetnu gi'e krinu lenu tu'a la fifafuf. lojban. nandu .ije la lojban. ja'aju'o frica loi rarbau lo ka ju'arge'a (This IS true AND is the reason why fi-fa-fu is hard, AND lojban is definitely syntactically unlike natlangs.) > > Then when you compound this by leaving the selbri unstated until > > the end, you are forcing the irresolution of the semantics of all > > these places to be maintained. > > True, that strikes me as hard. I can never understand how the Japanese > manage to speak Japanese, & I'm mystified by the prevalence of V-final > clause ordering. .i mi na djuno fi la ponban. .iku'i go'i fi la la'oban. .i lenu le selbri cu romoi lo jufra cu fadni filoi la'orbau jufra .iku'i le bi'unai jufra cu frili te jimpe ri'a lenu lo la'orbau tersumti cu selte'i lo terpli pe le valsi (I don't know about Japanese, but I do know about Latin. It is usual for the Latin sentence to end with a verb. But such a sentence is still easy to understand because the case clearly marks the usage of the word.) > If you find the result difficult, it shows either that you just > don't have a good enough command of Lojban, or that there are > real parts of lojban grammar that are determined but not yet > promulgated in documents, or that the design doesn't work. Personally, > I think it is most likely that the first of these is so, and > least likely that the last is so. .i pe'i do drani fi tu'a di'u .iku'i pe'i lenu da co'a frili jimpe la fifafuf. lojban. cumki so'uda .o nola'ada (I think you are right about that, but I also think that it is highly improbable, if not even impossible, to achieve easy understanding of fi-fa-fu lojban.) co'o mi'e. goran. -- GAT/CS/O d?@ H s:-@ !g p1(2)@ !au(0?) a- w+(+++) (!)v-@(+) C++(++++) UU/H(+) P++>++++ L(>+) !3 E>++ N+ K(+) W--(---) M-- !V(--) -po+ Y(+) t+@(+++) !5 !j R+@ G-@(J++) tv+(++) b++@ D++ B? e+* u@ h!$ f?(+) r-- !n(+@) y+. GeekCode v2.1, modifications left to reader to puzzle out