Return-Path: LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@vms.dc.LSOFT.COM Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by xiron.pc.helsinki.fi (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA32398 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:14:00 +0200 Message-Id: <199601111914.VAA32398@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi> Received: from listmail.sunet.se by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id CE3898A2 ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 20:13:59 +0100 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:41:18 +0000 Reply-To: ucleaar Sender: Lojban list From: ucleaar Subject: Re: Nested preposed relative clauses X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Veijo Vilva Content-Length: 1554 Lines: 38 It is interesting to see processing difficulty used as a rationale for an augmentation to the grammar. > Some descriptor languages (English) have very limited possibilities > of using preposed restrictive clauses. German fares better but > succumbs soon with a bad case of center-embedding, as does Lojban. > In some non-descriptor languages (Finnish) the preposed clauses > are a viable/preferred alternative to postposed relative clauses. > In some others (Japanese) they are about the only possibility. > J: ((((machi) e iku) otoko) o miru) kodomo > F: ((((kaupunkiin) menevan) miehen) nakeva) lapsi > G: das ((den (in die Stadt gehenden) Mann) sehende) Kind > L: le (poi (le (poi (le tcadu) cu se klama ku'o) nanmu) cu se viska > ku'o) verba > E: *((((into the town) going) man) seeing) child English does have similar constructions though, e.g.: man eating tiger tranquilizing gun cleaning machines "machines that clean guns that tranquilize tigers that eat men" Sophy's brother's new book's author's name > This would require but a single new selma'o/cmavo {xu'o}. The example > would read > *le poi le tcadu cu se klama xu'o nanmu cu se viska ku'o verba "The city-entering-man-seeing child" > No language known to me is able to handle {ke'a}s unambiguously > in the case of nested relative clauses - whether preposed or > postposed. I proposed a method, using prenexes, that I think has been adopted: the kea refers to the sumti modified by the relative clause that the kea is in the outermost bridi of. coo, mie and