Message-Id: <199601062303.BAA13203@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sat, 6 Jan 1996 23:56:17 MET
Reply-To: Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Goran Topic <topic@STUDENT.MATH.HR>
Subject:      Re: misc respsonses to And from last month
To:         Lojban Listserv <lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Content-Length: 2451
Lines: 55

> > Because people memorize the places in a certain order rather than as
> > having certain place numbers, and you are intentionally marking them by
> > their place numbers.  This forces the listener to tag the sumti by place
> > number and overtly rearrange them in his head for interpretation per the
> > selbri place structure.
>
> If true, then this would indeed be a reason why fi-fa-fu is hard.
> But if true, it means Lojban is syntactically unlike natlangs, which
> indeed it may be.

.i la'ede'u jetnu gi'e krinu lenu tu'a la fifafuf. lojban. nandu .ije
la lojban. ja'aju'o frica loi rarbau lo ka ju'arge'a

(This IS true AND is the reason why fi-fa-fu is hard, AND lojban is
definitely syntactically unlike natlangs.)

> > Then when you compound this by leaving the selbri unstated until
> > the end, you are forcing the irresolution of the semantics of all
> > these places to be maintained.
>
> True, that strikes me as hard. I can never understand how the Japanese
> manage to speak Japanese, & I'm mystified by the prevalence of V-final
> clause ordering.

.i mi na djuno fi la ponban. .iku'i go'i fi la la'oban. .i lenu le
selbri cu romoi lo jufra cu fadni filoi la'orbau jufra .iku'i le bi'unai
jufra cu frili te jimpe ri'a lenu lo la'orbau tersumti cu selte'i lo
terpli pe le valsi

(I don't know about Japanese, but I do know about Latin. It is usual
for the Latin sentence to end with a verb. But such a sentence is still
easy to understand because the case clearly marks the usage of the
word.)

> If you find the result difficult, it shows either that you just
> don't have a good enough command of Lojban, or that there are
> real parts of lojban grammar that are determined but not yet
> promulgated in documents, or that the design doesn't work. Personally,
> I think it is most likely that the first of these is so, and
> least likely that the last is so.

.i pe'i do drani fi tu'a di'u .iku'i pe'i lenu da co'a frili jimpe la
fifafuf. lojban. cumki so'uda .o nola'ada

(I think you are right about that, but I also think that it is highly
improbable, if not even impossible, to achieve easy understanding of
fi-fa-fu lojban.)

co'o mi'e. goran.

--
GAT/CS/O d?@ H s:-@ !g p1(2)@ !au(0?) a- w+(+++) (!)v-@(+) C++(++++)
UU/H(+) P++>++++ L(>+) !3 E>++ N+ K(+) W--(---) M-- !V(--) -po+ Y(+)
t+@(+++) !5 !j R+@ G-@(J++) tv+(++) b++@ D++ B? e+* u@ h!$ f?(+) r--
!n(+@) y+. GeekCode v2.1, modifications left to reader to puzzle out