Message-Id: <199601220050.CAA06534@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sun, 21 Jan 1996 16:46:57 -0800
Reply-To: Gerald Koenig <jlk@NETCOM.COM>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Gerald Koenig <jlk@NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: TECH: Nested relative clauses
To: Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
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>Reply-To: ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>
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>From: ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>
>Subject:      Re: TECH: Nested relative clauses
>X-To:         lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
>To: Gerald Koenig <jlk@netcom.com>
>Status: R
>
>Kolin:
>> In Lojban we have invariable words, but clearly defined categories:
>> 'xirma' is a  brivla; it can therefore function as a selbri, or a
>> bridi, or indeed a jufra. It cannot be a sumti - it needs an explicit
>> converter, normally a gadri. Now my objection to 're xirma' is that a
>> laivla (quantifier word) is being used as this converter. Clearly it
>> can be made to work because it has been; but in my view it's a kludge,
>> in large part because it means 're lo xirma' and that 'lo' is part of
>> the skeleton of the phrase. (The presence of 'le re xirma' complicates
>> the issue further)

and>
>John has made {re xirma} and {re lo xirma} nonequivalent in either one
>or two ways (they're different with respect to dogbiting behaviour
>("2 men bite 3 dogs" - how many dogs?) and possibly with respect to
>existential import.

djer:  Did I miss something about the installation of this vague change
in an era of five years of no change?  Maybe I should go to lojfest.

>But anyway, if {re xirma} were equivalent to {re lo xirma}, and
>deserves your criticism, it would be a very mild offender, since the
>rule by which it is abbreviated is so straightforward.

Straightforward, yes, and far reaching.  It's just the difference
between having the number system be based on traditional logic or on set
theory. And a lot more.

>
coo, mie and

djer