Message-Id: <199601242009.WAA17043@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:05:09 -0500
Reply-To: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      Re: sera'aku le'ala'ozo PLI Cultural gismu
To: Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 2649
Lines: 50

>Finnish: figurative(ten-thousand-lakes)culture
>          pe'a ke pa no ki'o lalxu ke'e kulnu
>             pevykempavnonki'ola'ukepklu
>
>--More--
>Is this the sort of thing you mean?  Does anyone from these respective
>cultures object to being referred to in this way?  Are there any suggestions
>for English, Irish and American.  I can't think of any short defining
>concepts for them.


Well, being of the not-too-figurative persuasion, >I< wouldn't think of
these kinds of words, but with the pe'a they make some sense.

Myself, I would always be inclined to include some minimal geographical
element or perhaps a historical one as a major basis of my lujvo.  Thus
I might do Finnish, assuming the lake metaphor is valid (Veijo?) as
north-Europe-lake-(culture).  But I would of course not be inclined to try this
without also coming up with words for the other Scandinavian cultures.
And that latter point is why I don't feel it is out of line to have skoto
cover both Irish and Scottish culture.  If one decides to permit it to
cover Irish culture, one then makes lujvo to cover not only Irish, but also the
 other cultures that will contrast with Irish, so as to leave the gismu more
likely to be a general term.

But even with this proviso, I note that the insistence that a gismu be a
general term and all lujvo cultures implied restrictions on it, is a
bias that we need not assume into Lojban.  It is tricky to do otherwise with
culture words, that seem so sensitive to people, but this is a special and
not a general problem.  (Imgine devising a lujvo based on rusko to cover
the Chechens, for example ..., yet it would make sense to include rusko
in for geographical information, if NOT for the violent history of the
reationship betweenthe two cultures - but south-russian-mountains is a
reasonably good metaphor for the Caucasus.)

There is no easy solution to the culture word problem.  But this is
equally true for any conlang with a pretense of being cross-cultural.
I favor borrowing until we have need for some individual to regularly use
a word (as Goran with Croatia), and then try to come up with lujvo
solutions that he believes would be acceptable in his region, if he feels that
type IV fu'ivla will not do.

Note, BTW that the actual Eaton concepts behind the culture words in the
gismu list are "my culture" and "some other culture".  Thus Goran or whoever
COULD use a fu'ivla for Croatian, etc. at first use, and then "cei broda"
or "cei mibyklu", then do whatever derivative lujvo are needed off of these.
This IS valid, and was planned for as an alternative culture word solution.
Just hadn't come up before.

lojbab