Message-Id: <199602101549.RAA08806@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:47:47 -0500
Reply-To: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      *old response on kalte vs. sisku
To: Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 2128
Lines: 44

pc:
> My
>problem is that the guidelines for _kalte_ as & et x present it
>(claiming that it is what the list actually says) gives me no clue at
>all about how to use this word.  It is not, for example, the word to use
>at the bottom of the clauses that say the English "hunt," since that is
>an achievement word, not an activity or process word.  Nor can I use it
>just to describe an activity or process unless I know that the process
>will be completed or the activity involves a specifiable target, neither
>of which is generally possible when I want to talk about the at first
>glance rather similar activity or process which I English as hunting.

Not knowing where this ended up - >I< certainly intended "hunt" to be
the pursuit of quarry, which presumably the pursuer believes to exist
(or plausibly to exist).  I have no trouble considering hunting as a
state, activity, process, or point event (and even the superfective
makes sense).

It is my opinion STILL that lo/le DO NOT claim that the sumti referents
exist in the real universe.  Every time someone comes up with a problem,
it seems to me that this opinion resolves that problem.

If someone wants to get hung up about opaque/transparent, I could buy a
discursive that made the distinction, or if it is a certainty that
opacity/transparency has no meaning except in the context of individual
sumti, I could buy a pair of members of LAhE as pc suggested.

pc:
>What is the intended result of seeking and hunting?  Finding and TAKing,
>I guess.  But "find" is surely already a gismu, though I can't find it,
>and TAKE is just a disjunction of a variety of takings, the appropriate
>one of which would be substituted in each case.  That is, these once
>useful old gismu would be superfluous and replaced by complexes to the
>same effect as the gismu once had.  So you have not yet found a new
>purpose for the displaced forms.

facki for  discover
cpacu/lebna for take, depending on semantics

but kalte is not necessarily that (or seek) - it was intended for the
rather more narrow meaning of attempting to capture/kill quarry to make
use of the "catch".

lojbab