Message-Id: <199602081129.GAA27745@locke.ccil.org>
Date:         Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:57:18 +0000
Reply-To: ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: ucleaar <ucleaar@UCL.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: "except"
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
Status: OR
Content-Length: 4120

Jorge:
> >{poo} is in UI. This means it is a metacomment made by the speaker.
> >It will not serve for "only" and "except" that occur in subordinate
> >bridi e.g. "She believes that only birds fly", "She believes all
> >birds except penguins fly". This is just not a job for a UI.
> What does this mean, then:
>        ko'a krici le du'u ro loi po'o cipni cu vofli

"She believes that all birdage flies". What the {poo} adds, I'm not
sure. Probably that all birdage is the only thing that she believes
flies. Oh I don't know. I said {poo} was unnecessary before it got
introduced. At the time, I didn't realize the semantic function of
UI or I would have railed more loudly against it.

> >I've already offered something for "only" and "except".
> Yes, but only in expanded form. Instead of saying "only A is broda"
> you want me to say "Ax: x=A <=> x is broda". Is there no way
> to say it in the form {<sumti> broda}?

I think not. It would require, I think, a novel type of cmavo, a
marker on a sumti position indicating that anything that could
fill that position does fill it in the current bridi. I have no
objection to such an innovation, but it is completely contrary to
current LLG policy.

> > As for "even",
> >and "not-only" (which shd be distinguished from "not only") (and, for
> >that matter, "still/already/at last", which also have the expectedness
> >element), it depends whether you want "She thinks even Bill spoke" to
> >mean "She thinks it is unexpected that it was Bill that spoke" or
> >"It would be unexpected if it was Bill that spoke and she thinks
> >that Bill spoke". If the former, use {spaji}.
> I don't know. Let's complicate it a little bit more:
>        ko'a spaji le du'u la bil cu cinba la salis
> Does that mean:
>        She is surprized that even Bill kissed Sally.
>        She is surprized that Bill even kissed Sally.
>        She is surprized that Bill kissed even Sally.
> Or does it simply mean:
>        She is surprized that Bill kissed Sally.
> I would say the last one.

Me too.

> How do we do the other three? The unexpectedness is only a part of
> "even", there is more to it than that, something like "among other
> cases, this is the most remarkable". So, "Even Bill kissed Sally"
> means that among those that kissed Sally, Bill is the most remarkable.
> "Bill even kissed Sally" means that among the things he did to her,
> kissing her is the most remarkable, and so on.

Right. Where there are several remarkable things and the most remarkable
is picked out.

> I could say all that in Lojban, of course, but the idea is to say it
> in a reasonably succint manner, as in English or any other natlang.

(1) My main point is that nothing in UI is a solution.
(2) If I had to suggest a route to a solution, I'd suggest something
based on {kau}.
(3) As it happens, {kau} is currently in UI. That's an ugly mistake
(which lojbab won't care about or see as a mistake), but we shouldn't
compound it by adding more things to UI that don't belong.

> >If the latter, then use some sort of UI-like object, e.g. {sei spaji
> >seu}.
> It is not really a matter of surprize. How do you translate:
>        Not surprizingly, even Bill went to the dance.
> It is not surprize-to-the-speaker that "even" shows. It is
> general unexpectedness with regard to how the world ought to be
> according to the background assumptions of the language community
> as a whole. A savvy speaker may not be surprized by even the
> most unexpected of things. The one least likely to go to the dance
> was Bill, but maybe there was some overriding attraction that
> made it not surprizing that even he went.

Well, if you're not happy with "surprise", use something else that
conforms to your (IMO correct) characterization.

> The same applies to already/still/at last. It is not the speaker
> that rules the unexpectedness. It is perfectly reasonable to say:
> "As I expected, he is still here", or "he finally started, three
> hours late, which didn't surprize me one bit". I don't think that
> ".ue" has much to do with this.

Right, but something with {sei ... seu} might do.

coo, mie and