From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Mon Feb 5 19:02:09 1996 Received: from vms.dc.lsoft.com (vms.dc.lsoft.com [205.186.43.2]) by locke.ccil.org (8.6.9/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA14786 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:01:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199602060001.TAA14786@locke.ccil.org> Received: from PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (205.186.43.4) by vms.dc.lsoft.com (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id A4F8439C ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:58:32 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:55:36 -0300 Reply-To: "Jorge J. Llambias" Sender: Lojban list From: "Jorge J. Llambias" Subject: Re: "except" X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan Status: OR X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 2540 And: >I've already offered something for "only" and "except". Yes, but only in expanded form. Instead of saying "only A is broda" you want me to say "Ax: x=A <=> x is broda". Is there no way to say it in the form { broda}? > As for "even", >and "not-only" (which shd be distinguished from "not only") (and, for >that matter, "still/already/at last", which also have the expectedness >element), it depends whether you want "She thinks even Bill spoke" to >mean "She thinks it is unexpected that it was Bill that spoke" or >"It would be unexpected if it was Bill that spoke and she thinks >that Bill spoke". If the former, use {spaji}. I don't know. Let's complicate it a little bit more: ko'a spaji le du'u la bil cu cinba la salis Does that mean: She is surprized that even Bill kissed Sally. She is surprized that Bill even kissed Sally. She is surprized that Bill kissed even Sally. Or does it simply mean: She is surprized that Bill kissed Sally. I would say the last one. How do we do the other three? The unexpectedness is only a part of "even", there is more to it than that, something like "among other cases, this is the most remarkable". So, "Even Bill kissed Sally" means that among those that kissed Sally, Bill is the most remarkable. "Bill even kissed Sally" means that among the things he did to her, kissing her is the most remarkable, and so on. I could say all that in Lojban, of course, but the idea is to say it in a reasonably succint manner, as in English or any other natlang. >If the latter, then use >some sort of UI-like object, e.g. {sei spaji seu}. It is not really a matter of surprize. How do you translate: Not surprizingly, even Bill went to the dance. It is not surprize-to-the-speaker that "even" shows. It is general unexpectedness with regard to how the world ought to be according to the background assumptions of the language community as a whole. A savvy speaker may not be surprized by even the most unexpected of things. The one least likely to go to the dance was Bill, but maybe there was some overriding attraction that made it not surprizing that even he went. The same applies to already/still/at last. It is not the speaker that rules the unexpectedness. It is perfectly reasonable to say: "As I expected, he is still here", or "he finally started, three hours late, which didn't surprize me one bit". I don't think that ".ue" has much to do with this. Jorge