From LOJBAN%CUVMB.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Tue Feb 6 04:13:27 1996 Received: from vms.dc.lsoft.com (vms.dc.lsoft.com [205.186.43.2]) by locke.ccil.org (8.6.9/8.6.10) with ESMTP id EAA19815 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 04:13:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199602060913.EAA19815@locke.ccil.org> Received: from PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (205.186.43.4) by vms.dc.lsoft.com (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id 3FB0B81D ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 3:32:47 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:33:36 -0600 Reply-To: Scott Brickner Sender: Lojban list From: Scott Brickner Subject: Re: brain fart metaphor X-To: ucleaar X-cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 02 Feb 1996 18:45:09 GMT.) <118149.9602021845@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk> Status: OR X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Content-Length: 1692 ucleaar writes: >I don't think {broda brode} entails {brode}. So technically, {besna kafke} >is legit. Furthermore, even if you used just {kafke}, that too is okay; >you'd be claiming it was a cough/fart, but then that's metaphor. I think you've gone too far. I'm with you that {broda brode} need not entail {brode}, but I do think that {brode} *does* entail {brode}, so {kafke} alone should be marked with {pe'a}. >As for whether you should use {pea}, there are no circumstances in which >you should use {pea}, but this is a circumstance where it would be >acceptable to do so. I disagree that {pe'a} is always optional. Failure to use {pe'a} when a gismu or lujvo is being used metaphorically is (IMHO) improper. As Don noted in one of our Lojban exchanges on the subject, Lojban is a *logical* language. If you assert a predicate, the predicate should be true (epistemological issues aside). If you wish to assert that it is metaphorically true, say so. My position, though, is that tanru are already metaphors, and don't, therefore, require {pe'a} markers. The particular point at issue is whether the places of {broda brode}, being the same as {brode}, may be filled by metaphorical objects. Does a {besna kafke} require a {te kafke}, or may it merely have a {pe'a te kafke}? Don (and John Cowan, it seems) think not. (I'm actually undecided, not really being competent to decide, but am arguing in favor of it as advocatus diabolus.) Meanwhile, can anyone come up with a selbri for "metaphor"? I'd like to move some of this discussion *back* to lojban, but it's tough when I can't say "Tanru are metaphors" for lack of the darn word.