Message-Id: <199602141659.SAA06176@xiron.pc.helsinki.fi>
Date:         Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:55:28 -0500
Reply-To: "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: "Robert J. Chassell" <bob@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: sera'aku GEN: almost-PROPOSAL: intervals
To: Veijo Vilva <veion@XIRON.PC.HELSINKI.FI>
Content-Length: 5241
Lines: 226

On reading Cowan's Imaginary Journey's paper, revision 3.19,
I figured out that the most meaningful glosses for

    {pu} followed by a sumti

are `in the past of' and `pastwards of'.

These phrases don't make for smooth English, but they do convey the
sense of the cmavo as described in that paper.

Thus:

    la djan. klama la glazgov. pu la maris.

    John goes/went/will-go to Glasgow in the past of Mary.

    John went to Glasgow before Mary.

This contrasts with `in the past of the speaker', which is a good
gloss for the use of {pu} in the main part of a sentence.

Thus:

    la djan. pu klama la glazgov.

    John, in the past of the speaker, goes to Glasgow.

    Sometime in the speaker's past, John went to Glasgow.

    John went to Glasgow.

Combining the two forms:

    la djan. pu klama la glazgov. ba la maris.

    John, in the past of the speaker, goes to Glasgow in the future of Mary.

    John went to Glasgow after Mary.

Now, here are my attempts to translate various of the sentences
recently proposed.

Utterance 1.
===========

   >> > >mi klama la glazgov. puza lo nanca belipimu

translates as:

    I go/went/will-go to Glasgow in the past of, by a medium temporal
    distance, a 1/2 year.

That is to say,  the time when I go to Glasgow is
a medium time before some 6 month period.

Often, we think of a tenseless main bridi as being in the present (as
in story telling mode), so this would translate as

    I went to Glasgow some what more than 6 months ago.

but this latter translation is overly precise; the Lojban is saying
only that my trip to Glasgow is somewhat before a 6 month time period.

Utterance 2.
===========

The Lojban parser, version 2;5;33, parses the following:

   >> mi klama la glazgov. za lo nanca belipimu pu le nu xabju la belfast.

as:

    (mi {klama <[
          ({la glazgov}
             {za <lo [nanca (be {li <[pi mu] BOI> LO'O} BE'O )] KU>}
          )
     (pu {le <nu [xabju ({la belfast} VAU)] KEI> KU})
                ] VAU>
        }
     )

I translate this as:

    I go/went/will-go
           to Glasgow
              a medium time interval before/after/concurrent with a half year
    in the past of living in Belfast.

Meaning,

    I am or was or will be in Glasgow (as the result of having gone there)
    before living in Belfast;
    and, that time in Glasgow will be during, before, or after a half year.

In other words, this utterance does not relate the half year to the
time in Glasgow.

Utterance 3.
===========

    >>   mi klama la glazgov.
         co'a lo nanca belipimu poi prulamji lenu xabju la belfast.

This parses as:

    (mi {klama <[(la glazgov)
          (co'a {lo <nanca [be
            ({li <[pi mu] BOI> LO'O}
              {poi <prulamji
                [(le {nu <xabju [(la belfast) VAU]> KEI} KU) VAU]
                   >
            KU'O}
            )
          BE'O]> KU})
    ] VAU>})

I translate this as;

    I go/went/will-go to Glasgow
         at the beginning of
            the half year
              that is earlier than and adjacent to
                the event of living in Belfast.

In other words:

    I am or was or will be in Glasgow (as the result of having gone there);
    and, that time in Glasgow
    is 6 months before my living in Belfast.

Or in smooth, but over precise, English,

    I went to Glasgow 6 months before moving to live in Belfast.

Utterance 4.
===========

   >> > >mi klama la glazgov. pu'o lo nanca belipimu prulamji

translates as:

    I go/went/will-go to Glasgow  before the start of a
    half-year-type-of earlier-than-type-of-adjacency


Meaning:

    I am or was or will be in Glasgow;
    and, that time in Glasgow
    is before the start of a 6 month period.

    More than six months ago, I went to Glasgow.


Utterance 5.
===========

   >> > >mi klama la glazgov. ca'o le puzi nanca belipimu

translates as:

    I go/went/will-go to Glasgow  during
    a short-duration-in-the-past-type-of half year.

Meaning:

    I went to Glasgow sometime in the past six months.


Utterance 6.
===========

   .i mi klama la glazgov. co'a  lo nanca be li pi mu prulamji

translates as:

    I go to Glasgow  at the beginning of a
    half-year-type-of earlier-than-type-of-adjacency

Meaning:

    I went to Glasgow six months ago.


This leads to:

Utterance 7.
===========

   .i mi klama la glazgov.
    co'a lo nanca be li pi mu prulamji
    pu le nu xabju la belfast.

which parses as:

    (i {mi <klama
      [({
        <la glazgov>
          <co'a [lo ({nanca <be [li ({pi mu} BOI) LO'O] BE'O>} prulamji) KU]>
        }
        {pu <le [nu (xabju {<la belfast> VAU}) KEI] KU>}
       ) VAU]>})

which translates as:

    I go to Glasgow
    at the beginning of a half-year-type-of earlier-than-type-of-adjacency
    in the past of the event of living in Belfast

But I don't know what the translation means!

Does it mean:

    I went to Glasgow six months ago, before living in Belfast.

or does it mean:

    I went to Glasgow six months before living in Belfast.

I think it means the second.

    Robert J. Chassell               bob@gnu.ai.mit.edu
    25 Rattlesnake Mountain Road     bob@rattlesnake.com
    Stockbridge, MA 01262-0693 USA   (413) 298-4725