From lojban@cuvmb.bitnet Sun Mar 24 10:23:24 1996 Received: from punt4.demon.co.uk by stryx.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA10946 ; Sun, 24 Mar 96 10:23:22 BST Received: from punt-4.mail.demon.net by mailstore for ia@stryx.demon.co.uk id 827588826:27188:0; Sat, 23 Mar 96 13:47:06 GMT Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu ([128.228.1.2]) by punt-4.mail.demon.net id aa26963; 23 Mar 96 13:46 GMT Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5983; Sat, 23 Mar 96 08:46:00 EST Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 1415; Sat, 23 Mar 96 08:46:35 EDT Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 12:32:38 -0800 Reply-To: "John E. Clifford" Sender: Lojban list From: "John E. Clifford" Subject: opacity To: lojban list Message-ID: <827588791.26963.0@cunyvm.cuny.edu> Status: R cowan: mi sisku tu'a le sisku I search for a searcher. pc: This does not fit the pattern claimed for _sisku_ but rather the pattern for most opaque contexts. _tu'a le sisku_ is an event description, though a very vague one; it is not a property in any case -- read the definition of _tu'a_, which is not merely an opacity flag. Aside from that, the property trick does solve part of the problem with opaque contexts. But it would be nice to have a general solution, which this one, depending on the special nature of the deep structure of _sisku_, does not provide. I also am not to happy about burying quantifiers in predicates, though that is may here be just a problem with the way this is expressed in English. cowan: da poi bloti zo'u mi sisku le ka me da There exists a boat X such that I search for something with the property of being X. mi sisku le ka [ce'u zo'u] ce'u bloti I search-for-something-with the property-that {x : x is-a-boat}. pc: Lord, does _me_ mean "is identical with" now? That is about the third time that notion has gone into cmavo space and been ejected from it, isn't it? That aside, this is not too bad, though still not generalizable. pc>|83