From lojban@cuvmb.bitnet Mon Apr 15 18:43:33 1996 Received: from punt4.demon.co.uk by stryx.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA11354 ; Mon, 15 Apr 96 18:43:29 BST Received: from punt-4.mail.demon.net by mailstore for ia@stryx.demon.co.uk id 829347025:20888:3; Fri, 12 Apr 96 23:10:25 BST Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu ([128.228.1.2]) by punt-4.mail.demon.net id aa20295; 12 Apr 96 23:09 +0100 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4191; Fri, 12 Apr 96 18:08:59 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 0611; Fri, 12 Apr 96 18:08:33 EDT Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 23:07:31 +0100 Reply-To: ucleaar Sender: Lojban list From: ucleaar Subject: *short intemperate response to Lojbab on {kea} X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN Message-ID: <829346957.20295.0@cunyvm.cuny.edu> Status: R > >> >I also propose, following a suggestion by you, that kea be usable within > >> >to...toi as a reference to, by default, the outermost bridi of the > >> >sentence containing to...toi: > >> > Sophy, as I'm sure you know, is married. > >> > la sofi n to kea zou mi birti kuau do djuno kea toi cu ca speni > >> > Sophy is, I fervently believe, unsurpassedly beautiful > >> > la sofi n cu to mi carmi krici kea toi traji leka kea melbi > >> I won't pretend to understand this. > >{kea} in prenex of the main bridi within to..toi refers to a bridi the > >parenthesis is within. > Be specific, and tell me for the above example what you think ke'a > stands for. I really have no idea. It stands for that la sofi n cu ca speni, and for that la sofi n cu traji leka kea/cue melbi. > Then tell me what you think dei, nei, and no'a would stand for in the > same position. (I believe that dei refers either to the parenthetical > text or the whole bridi text with the parenthetical (sedu'u), The latter, I'd have thought. > that nei would refer to the bridi in the parenthetical (du'u), In the first example, it would refer to that do djuno that do djuno that do djuno that .... In the second example, it would refer to that mi carmi krici that mi carmi krici that ... > and that no'a refers to the bridi in which the parenthetical is embedded > (du'u), which appears to be "zo'e traji zo'e" in the latter example. Right for the latter example. For the former, noa would refer to that mi birti kuau do djuno noa. > Your translation makes it appear that no'a would be correct. Sometimes it would be. > I make no ruling on what it might mean in the deviant first example, > since I do not accept kuau and have no idea what effect it would/should > have on prosumti references. Also, since ke'a is not a bound variable, > I have no idea why you put it in the prenex - like ri/ra/ru and zo'e > it's definition changes in different places. The rule is that kea refers to the modificand modified by the bridi in whose prenex kea is. It doesn't work like ri/ra/ru or zoe. > > >I suppose that {noa} within the main/outermost bridi of the > > >parenthesis would refer to the bridi the parenthesis occurs in. > > >But note that in > > > {koa blanu to ko,i krici kuau koo morsi kuau noa} > > >{noa} would be the morsi bridi, and in > > > {koa blanu to ko,i krici kuau le noa xunre} > > >{le noa} refers to {ko,i}, not to {koa}. In contrast, in > no'a can be subscripted for multiple levels of nesting, no'axiro = > go'ixino would get you the outermost one. Yes, that would work too. > > {koa blanu to kea goi koe zou ko,i krici kuau koo morsi koe/kea} > >{koe/kea} refers to the blanu bridi. > Same problem as above with the scope of ke'a, which cannot be bound by a > prenex. The scope of kea IS determined by the prenex it is or could be in. That's how kea works. > Coupled with this is that you have put ko'a/ke'a in the x2 place of > morsi, and used your variant cmavo, and I have NO idea what you > are trying for. I meant "morji", not "morsi". "Remember that". The sentence translates as "It1 is blue, as it2 believes it3 remembers". ===And