From - Fri Apr 19 11:34:39 1996 Received: from VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM (vms.dc.lsoft.com [205.186.43.2]) by locke.ccil.org (8.6.9/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA00245 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:32:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199604101832.OAA00245@locke.ccil.org> Received: from PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (205.186.43.4) by VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id D675D020 ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:26:49 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:23:15 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: *short intemperate response to Lojbab on {kea} X-To: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: John Cowan X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Content-Length: 2677 >From: ucleaar >Subject: short intemperate response to Lojbab on {kea} >> We have nei/no'a/la'edei for what I think you are trying for. > >I doubt it. I'd have thought {dei} refers to the current utterance, >while {nei} refers to current bridi and {noa} to next outer bridi. None >of these will cover the function of {kea}. >> >I also propose, following a suggestion by you, that kea be usable within >> >to...toi as a reference to, by default, the outermost bridi of the >> >sentence containing to...toi: >> > Sophy, as I'm sure you know, is married. >> > la sofi n to kea zou mi birti kuau do djuno kea toi cu ca speni >> > Sophy is, I fervently believe, unsurpassedly beautiful >> > la sofi n cu to mi carmi krici kea toi traji leka kea melbi >> I won't pretend to understand this. > >{kea} in prenex of the main bridi within to..toi refers to a bridi the >parenthesis is within. Be specific, and tell me for the above example what you think ke'a stands for. I really have no idea. Then tell me what you think dei, nei, and no'a would stand for in the same position. (I believe that dei refers either to the parenthetical text or the whole bridi text with the parenthetical (sedu'u), that nei would refer to the bridi in the parenthetical (du'u), and that no'a refers to the bridi in which the parenthetical is embedded (du'u), which appears to be "zo'e traji zo'e" in the latter example. Your translation makes it appear that no'a would be correct. I make no ruling on what it might mean in the deviant first example, since I do not accept kuau and have no idea what effect it would/should have on prosumti references. Also, since ke'a is not a bound variable, I have no idea why you put it in the prenex - like ri/ra/ru and zo'e it's definition changes in different places. >I suppose that {noa} within the main/outermost bridi of the >parenthesis would refer to the bridi the parenthesis occurs in. >But note that in > {koa blanu to ko,i krici kuau koo morsi kuau noa} >{noa} would be the morsi bridi, and in > {koa blanu to ko,i krici kuau le noa xunre} >{le noa} refers to {ko,i}, not to {koa}. In contrast, in no'a can be subscripted for multiple levels of nesting, no'axiro = go'ixino would get you the outermost one. > {koa blanu to kea goi koe zou ko,i krici kuau koo morsi koe/kea} >{koe/kea} refers to the blanu bridi. Same problem as above with the scope of ke'a, which cannot be bound by a prenex. Coupled with this is that you have put ko'a/ke'a in the x2 place of morsi, and used your variant cmavo, and I have NO idea what you are trying for. lojbab