From lojban@cuvmb.bitnet Thu Aug 01 23:31:44 1996 Received: from punt4.demon.co.uk by stryx.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA13514 ; Thu, 01 Aug 96 23:31:36 BST Received: from punt-4.mail.demon.net by mailstore for ia@stryx.demon.co.uk id 838878598:04890:4; Thu, 01 Aug 96 06:49:58 BST Received: from cunyvm.cuny.edu ([128.228.1.2]) by punt-4.mail.demon.net id aa04535; 1 Aug 96 6:49 +0100 Received: from CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 0312; Thu, 01 Aug 96 01:48:48 EDT Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Mailer R2.07) with BSMTP id 8088; Thu, 01 Aug 96 01:48:37 EDT Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 01:48:55 -0400 Reply-To: Logical Language Group Sender: Lojban list From: Logical Language Group Subject: Re: may the wind be X-To: sbelknap@UIC.EDU X-cc: lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu To: Multiple recipients of list LOJBAN Message-ID: <838878544.4535.0@cunyvm.cuny.edu> Status: R >>Now this is the most promising. I can see that pe'a can be used for lojban >>metaphors. We still have the difficulty of creating metaphors that are >>non-culture-specific, or at least lojban-specific, but that seems a likely >>source of real lojban metaphors. (We'll probably still have arguments about >>where the metaphors originate, mind...!) >> >>>"May circumstances always assist you like a tailwind assists a ship". >> >>Yes!! >>A compromise with the best of both worlds. A metaphor and a clear >>description of the meaning. The best yet, anyway, in my opinion. > > >No! This is a simile not a metaphor. Similes are easy to translate between >languages, as a simile explicitly links the essentially unlike things which >are to be compared. Metaphors are implicit. I would look askance at >translating metaphor as simile. They are different. Metaphor draws on the >shared culture, knowledge, or language of the speaker and listener more >than simile does. But Lojban assumes that there is NO shared culture or language shared between speaker and listener other than Lojban (I will not make statements about shared knowledge, except that the speaker has the obligation to cater to the listener's knowledge according to our language "ethic".) Simile, and metaphor , and other such terms are words used to describe features of certain natural languages. Generically, a simile IS a kind of metaphor - it just happens to be a kind which is more highly marked than others. "Brain fart", vs. "as if his brain farted it" mean essentially the same thing. Thus it is only stylistics that determine whether simile is acceptable as a translation for metaphor. As I say in another post, I think it is preferred to almost any other method of translating metaphor. lojbab ---- lojbab lojbab@access.digex.net Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 For the artificial language Loglan/Lojban, see powered.cs.yale.edu /pub/lojban or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"