Message-Id: <199608010616.CAA03813@locke.ccil.org>
Date:         Thu, 1 Aug 1996 01:49:49 -0400
Reply-To: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Sender: Lojban list <LOJBAN@CUVMB.BITNET>
From: Logical Language Group <lojbab@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>
Subject:      Re: may the wind....
To: John Cowan <cowan@LOCKE.CCIL.ORG>
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>From: Andrew Smith <adms@YCO.LEEDS.AC
.UK>
>I agree with your exhortation to avoid metaphors and be explicit if there is
>any reason to believe you may be misunderstood (computer, alien, etc), but
>the difficulty is deciding whether a metaphor is appropriate in a particular
>context.

I'll chime in on this.  The answer is that, when there is doubt, avoid it
or at least mark the text as a metaphor.

In the case of the aphorism being discussed, I would phrase it

a'o do zanselfu'a tai/mu'u loi brif
e be lei sidju
(I hope) You have (good) luck in manner like/exemplified by wind from a
helpful direction.

You could expand upon this by having "wind from the help
ful rear" to get the
more literal trnaslation.  The point being that you have used the sumti
tcita tai or mu'u to make it clear that the wind blowi
ng at your back is
only a metaphorical invocation of  good luck, and you actually desirt
e the
appropriate parallel good luck.

>>   - some metaphors might be obvious to any intelligent being regardless
>       of culture (?is this true?)
>
>This seems plausible, but which ones are obvious?
>The gimste tells us to avoid using 'heart' for 'love' but suggests  'brain'
>for 'intelligence'.
>I'm not suggesting this is wrong, but it seems to me dangerous to assume
>that 'brain'='intelligence' everywhere.

The brain is the source of intelligence, by all the scientific
 theories I
think are in vogue.  The heart has no more to do with love than any other
organ, except according to poets of some cultures.  In the latter case th
,
not only is the metaphor out of keeping with reality, we know that there are
cultures that specifically associate love with other body organs/locations,
and hence the explicit warning in the gismu list was called for.

>>   - very often Lojban interlocutors will happen to be from the same
>        or related cultures
>
>This  is a minefield, as I'm sure you're well aware. There are any number of
>misunderstandings between Americans and Britons speaking the same-ish
>language from a related culture.

I try to avoid metaphorical usage even when talking to my wife in Lojban,
UNLESS I am explicitly trying to be humorously malglico.
]

>To give a lojban example, without digging all the old discussion up again, I
>didn't understand the term 'besna kafke' at all, because I had never heard
>the American expression 'brain fart'

I would not have understood it either, and I'm quite American.  Although
if there was a mabla in the tanru, I might have inferred the meaning if not
the actual English phrase - referring to the forceable ejection of mabla
from the brain. (mabla and zabna are in effect indications of metaphor
in tanru but have the advantage of being gismu with place strcutures, and
hence a bit more flexible than the cmavo marker of metpahjorical use.


>>"May circumstances always assist you like a tailwind assists a ship".
>Yes!!
>A compromise with the best of both worlds. A metaphor and a clear
>description of the meaning. The best yet, anyway, in my opinion.

This is probably as effective as my own suggestion, and i
s an example
of the way I would like to see metaphors handled: give the metaphor and
its effectyive meaning both.

lojbab
----
lojbab                                                lojbab@access.digex.net
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                        703-385-0273
For the artificial language Loglan/Lojban, see powered.cs.yale.edu  /pub/lojban
    or see Lojban WWW Server: href="http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/"